Why are conspiracy theories so popular, and why are so many people willing to believe the most unbelievable things? Today’s guest, New York Times’ bestselling author and historian Brad Meltzer, explains that the idea of secret societies and conspiracy theories are actually mirrors that reflect a culture’s fears, insecurities, and fascinations.

Join us as Brad shares examples of how the Kennedy assassination conspiracy changed from decade to decade, how to speak with a friend or family member who believes in a conspiracy, and exactly who is buried in John Wilkes Booth’s grave.

Brad Meltzer

Brad Meltzer is the #1 New York Times’ bestselling author of 12 previous thrillers, including “The Escape Artist,” with more than 11 million copies sold. He also helped find the missing 9/11 flag with his History Channel TV show “Brad Meltzer’s Lost History” and “Brad Meltzer’s Decoded.” In addition, he’s the author of the nonfiction bestseller “The Lincoln Conspiracy,” as well as the blockbuster children’s history book series “Ordinary People Change the World.” A PBS KIDS TV show based on his books, “Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum,” now has 28 million viewers and was recently nominated for multiple Emmys and TCA Awards. Meltzer has written bestselling comic books with Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man. The Hollywood Reporter put him on their list of the 25 Most Powerful Authors, he’s a favorite author of multiple U.S. Presidents, and he’s been asked to serve as a member of the America250 Council to celebrate the upcoming 250th birthday of the country. He lives in Florida with his wife and three children.

Gabe Howard

Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, “Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations,” available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author.

Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can’t imagine life without.

To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com.

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Mental Health: A Psych Central Podcast where experts share experiences and the latest thinking on mental health and psychology. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Hey, everyone, I’m your host, Gabe Howard and calling into the show today, we have Brad Meltzer. Brad is the number one New York Times best-selling author of 12 previous thrillers, including The Escape Artist, and he’s also helped find the missing 9/11 flag with his History Channel TV shows Brad Meltzer’s Lost History and Brad Meltzer’s Decoded. Brad, welcome to the show.

Brad Meltzer: Thank you for having me.

Gabe Howard: So you’ve done a ton of research into secret societies and secret locations across the United States. That’s kind of where I’d like to zero in on because secret societies and secret locations, they are real. But of course, they’re also the basis of well-known conspiracy theories like the QAnon conspiracy. What are your thoughts on how the public should evaluate fact from fiction when it comes to secret societies, locations and the like?

Brad Meltzer: Listen, Gabe, I think at the end of the day, we’re the society right now that has more access to information than any society before it ever. We have the library of Alexandria in our pockets every day on our phones. But the hardest thing to find today is the truth. Right? Go put the word Freemason into Google and watch how many pages you have to click through before you find one that has actual truth in it. Telling you that the Freemasons are taking over the world and they’re stealing your cars and they’re eating your babies and whatever else. And I think as a culture, at least for myself, we’re starving for truth right now. And if you said to me the one thing that I wish I could have for everyone is I feel like we need a new class in schools that lets people figure out information from misinformation because especially when it comes, as you said, the secret society and especially when it comes to secret locations, people just want to tell the craziest ghost story they can tell. But that doesn’t mean it’s a true story. And to me, the best story is the true story, not the crazy kooky one. But everything I’ve worked on is to help people find that unattainable thing, which is the actual truth.

Gabe Howard: Now I find secret anything fascinating, Brad, I want to just be honest, I love old buildings and historical shows that tell us the secret uses of old buildings. And listen, I desperately want a hidden passageway in my house. Is there something that drives this fascination? Is this just a normal human thing?

Brad Meltzer: We all want what we can’t have, that’s the easy part. Let’s just jump to the greatest one of all. I know who killed JFK. If you look in the sixties when JFK was murdered, we thought that the people that killed JFK were the Russians. They were the Cubans. It was the height of the Cold War. It was the Communists, our greatest enemy at the time of the Cold War. If you look in the seventies at the time of Watergate, when Richard Nixon made us be suspect of government in a way that we’d never had been before. Who killed JFK? Well, it was LBJ who did it. It was the CIA who did it. It was an inside job. The government did it. If you look in the 1980s as The Godfather movies peak, who killed JFK, the mafia did it. The mob did it. And decade by decade, if you want to know who killed JFK, it’s whoever America is most afraid of at that moment in time. And I say that simply to say that what all conspiracies are and all these secret passages are, that you love so much, is they’re mirrors. They’re mirrors to our fears and our fascinations. And listen, I can make up whatever I want, I can say. There are secret tunnels that run below the White House, and they come all the way out at Disney World.

Brad Meltzer: And you would laugh and be like, OK, that’s not true. But, if I tell you that when you’re in the ground floor corridor of the White House along the big red carpet, you’re going to find on your left hand side a statue of FDR. Make a left at the door there. When you open up that door, you’re going to find all these chairs that are stacked up to the ceiling. That’s where they store all its chairs for the state dinners. Now go out the back door. In that room, you’ll see the floor will start sloping downward. They’ll be HVAC equipment, slopes downward. You’re going to hit a dead end, make a right hand turn. At the dead end, you’ll see a steel door. That’s the entrance to the secret tunnel below the White House. And you know that that’s real. Something in your gut tells you that’s real.

Gabe Howard: When you were explaining the White House, there was this part of me that wanted to start taking notes, and I know that we’re recording, I got a microphone shoved in my face. I do this for a living and I’m like, This is super secret. It’s cool, right? You can kind of feel it in your chest and I can see how people get sucked into this.

Brad Meltzer: Yeah. Alison, but what you’re doing and asking those questions, it’s vital, man, it’s vital that you ask it like that.

Gabe Howard: You’ve been to the White House, right? You have presidents that love your work, and we can sort of believe you because you’ve been there. It’s not inconceivable that a building like the White House would have tunnels underneath it, right? Your path seems reasonable. But let’s say that you’re just lying to us. You’re just tricking. So what, right? So he didn’t actually know where the entrance to the tunnel was or there wasn’t a tunnel. But what if you take that same layer of truth, but you changed where the tunnel came out and where the tunnel came out now is, you know where the lizard people are secretly running the government? Or we’re QAnon meets or the secret room where they replace the president every night with the robot. Why do people believe that? Because your first version certainly sounds believable. The version that I just told, it doesn’t even sound believable, but we do live in a society where people are like, I knew it. I knew the president was a robot.

Brad Meltzer: Yeah, listen, you’re asking the right question, I love that you’re asking this question. I literally fight with this question on a daily basis, especially the way the news is working these days. And there is just no end. People believe what they want to believe. We hear, we want to hear, we see what we want to see. We believe, we want to believe. But the question is why? Why do we want to believe that nonsense? And I think again it goes back to JFK. If I tell you that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, then that means that one person on one given day can disrupt the entire universe. And that’s a really scary thought. But if I tell you, Oh my gosh, it was the government did it and LBJ did it. They were empowered with this one and this one, the CIA, and there was a whole group. Now it seems like it’s so much harder to disrupt us. So between those two things, which is the safer thing for believers to want to believe. The idea that it takes a lot to disrupt us or just one simple person. And so people want to believe the most complex, convoluted thing because they want the world to work in a way that makes them right. And I think there’s a psychology of America revealed.

Gabe Howard: So we know that there’s always going to be a fringe group that believes in ridiculousness. You know, again, we have people who believe that the Earth is flat, for example, so let’s take them out of the equation. Let’s talk about sort of the middle people, right? The people in the middle of the road because secret societies are real, except that we’ve heard of them. So I think of like the order of the Skull and Bones, right? This is a real secret society that does in fact exist. But then we compare that to another famous secret society like the Illuminati. That one doesn’t exist. So if you’re a reasonable person trying to evaluate this data, you can’t just hear, oh, secret societies or BS, that doesn’t exist because you’ve got one that’s real and one that’s fake, but they’re disgust everywhere, like they’re both the same.

Brad Meltzer: What we do is we want to make we want to lump everything together and come the Freemasons, and here comes skull and Bones, you know, and here comes the Illuminati and any group of people that are doing something that we don’t know are all twirling their mustache and stroking their cat and taking over the world. What we don’t want to stop and do because we’re such a short attention span, society is stop and say, OK, one by one, let’s go, Hey, I know friends who are in Skull and Bones. I have a friend who went to Yale and he was like, Yeah, they’re a fraternity, they’re, like, they have a lot of history, but they’re not taking over the world. But you can look at who their people are. You can look and see what presidents were in there. I remember I was actually having lunch. I’ll never forget, with George H.W. Bush and I remember, he said to me at the time, he’s like, Can you do me a favor? Because he saw that we were trying to debunk all these conspiracy theories. It’s hard work because there’s so much nonsense out there to get through. And he said to me, like dead serious, but also kind of partially joking, like, can you tell them to stop believing that I have? I forget it was like, there’s some Native American’s head that people on the internet thought he had himself. He’s like, Can you tell them I don’t have it or whatever it was? There’s a former president of the United States saying like, Why do people think I’m involved in this nonsense and like laughing at it. Like, this is a joke like I carry around a human head somewhere.

Brad Meltzer: And if it bothers a president, what hope does a regular person have? I remember I was in a cab once with a cab driver, and we were talking about some issue in the news and he was telling me like, Oh, this, this president is secretly, you know, sold out to cell. So I said, OK, let’s just break down what you said to have what you just said happen. I mean, the president of the United States has to be bought by this person. And then those people have to keep this secret. Then all the people that control that have to keep this secret, then. And I said, Do you think that logically, does that seem real to you? And when I finally broke it all down and said, all those things, can they all realistically happen? Nobody said to me, Gabe. He said, I’ll never forget. He paused and he was like, sometimes it’s just hard to know what’s true. I knew in that moment we were screwed as a society because it is so hard to separate that secret society like the Illuminati from the others now. Again, when you break it down, and you do a little research. Sure, you can see pretty quickly what has proof and what doesn’t. But no one wants to take that time. It’s much more fun to tell a ghost story.

Gabe Howard: So let’s talk about that for a moment, because I agree I love ghost stories. It’s one of the greatest things about fiction. You can go to places that it just doesn’t exist in the real world. Do you use some of this psychology of people wanting to believe these things to craft your novels to give people that escape is your understanding of our desire for this to be true? What makes you such a good author?

Brad Meltzer: I know one thing over these years, and that is the I’m not that special. And if I find something kooky crazy out there to be fascinating and worth digging into, I know I’m not that special. There are other people who want to find it. So as a perfect example, I found a couple of years ago, like four years ago, I was doing information about Mount Weather and High Point it’s called, which is the place where when Dick Cheney and 9/11 happened, where they take all of our kind of like top, top people in the government. Raven Rock, Mount Weather still in use today, 9/11 Dick Cheney and other top officials were evacuated there and they still exist. And at some point in the 50s and 60s, they called Mount Weather High Point. They realized, what do we do with the rest of the people? And I found this Michigan sanatorium not far from where you are, what’s called Low Point. Now, Mount Weather was called High Point and a Michigan sanatorium of all places called Low Point. And it was a place where the government would consider every different invention and scenario to protect civilians if there was a hydrogen bomb that was hit and they were going to make up the sanatorium to a pop up two hundred bed hospitals that could be fit inside tractor trailers, drive them to irradiated areas within four hours of the attack.

Brad Meltzer: You can have collection teams, all the bodies, seven thousand post office trucks were going to carry around bodies. They would take post office trucks and turn them into hearses and then guess what happened, Gabe? They realized that if there was a nuclear attack, none of it would work. It was all nonsense. It was complete and utter nonsense, right? We were all going to be dead, and it didn’t matter how many beds you had in your sanatorium. We were done. And that’s how it works until the late 1990s. I found this government employee named Stephen Bice wrote a paper recommending that we have a new stockpile to be ready for things for disasters. But instead of the nuclear war one, he was like, we need to have pharmaceuticals. Forget nuclear missiles. The threat is not, you know, it’s not there anymore. It’s bioterrorism. Government actually listens. They opened up a dozen secret warehouses all around the country carrying pharmaceuticals, carrying antidotes to smallpox. Embracing all the ideas of this guy. Anthrax, smallpox, push packages that could be ready in case there was a bioterrorism attack, and they will be ready for it. And this is all true. Now I got you, right? You’re listening. I’m listening. I’m fascinated. You were fascinated when I found out about it. But that beginning and that history and that real stuff that happens and all the stuff that existed for all these years and none of us ever knew about it, is to me the greatest setup and definitely helps me as a writer when I’m trying to hook readers.

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Gabe Howard: We are back with New York Times best-selling author Brad Meltzer discussing conspiracy theories, secret societies and locations. Sometimes conspiracies or conspiracy theories, they turn out to be true. However, there’s a trick to that right because some part of it turns out to be true, but the rest of it is false. Can you think of an example of a conspiracy theory that turned out to be true? And what were the differences between the true story and the conspiracy theory? Because I imagine that this whole thing hinged on, yeah, the warehouse was there. Everything else was different.

Brad Meltzer: Yeah. Here’s one of my favorites. Boy, what happened? I didn’t realize we would talk so much about JFK, but it’s just chock full of them. JFK’s brain was stolen. That’s the conspiracy theory is when JFK got shot, got shot in the head. They buried the body. But obviously his head was blown apart. They collected and scooped up his brain and his brain during the autopsy was removed. They wanted to see what happened, and they wanted to see if they could find anything in the bullet. When they buried the body of JFK, his brain wasn’t in it. Who is stealing JFK’s brain? That sounds like the silliest conspiracy theory of all time. It’s one hundred percent true. You know, we think like, Oh, it’s a nefarious thing, and there’s some mad scientist who’s going to clone the brain and we’re going to have a robot JFK running around and you can see all the kooky stories that can come out of it. You know, it’s a cover up. They don’t want to tell you what happened. They’re trying to hide who really kills him, all the theories that immediately come with it. But here’s what really happens. They didn’t know how to do it all. They were all scrambling and they put his brain into another container. That container of all places winds up at the National Archives. Seriously, you can go in and see the Declaration of Independence, you can see the Constitution, and somewhere in there was JFK’s brain, not joking, in a metal container. And on a certain day a secretary comes from RFK, from Bobby Kennedy and picks up the brain. And we never find the brain again. But what was the story that happened? And the story that happened was Bobby Kennedy did have them thrown into the ocean, I think is where they wound up being.

Brad Meltzer: And it wasn’t a giant cover up. It wasn’t to hide who killed him. It wasn’t to hide the ballistics. It was that Bobby Kennedy was terrified, as anyone would be if, God forbid, your family member was killed in such a public way. But if you didn’t get rid of that, that it would just be a sideshow and people will be paying money to go see it and people will be picking through his life forever and just wanting to give his brother some peace. You have this crazy conspiracy story, crazy ghost story, I should say, but the nefariousness is not a part of it. At the end of the day, it’s just a brother looking out for his other brother and saying, man, his family deserves some peace so they can actually move on with their lives. And that, to me, it smells of truth, right? None of us can really know what’s in Bobby Kennedy’s brain when he does it, and I’m sure there are people who can write into and say, that’s not true. Meltzer missed the story, he was part of the cover up. You can say whatever you want, but it doesn’t sound true to me. I think for every conspiracy theory, you have to ask one question: Who benefits? Who benefits? Ask yourself who benefits. And you’ll find the truth behind the conspiracy. And to me, that’s the one that smells the most real to me is a brother who buries his sibling and just wants his family to have some peace.

Gabe Howard: So, Brad, you’ve been doing this for a long time, you just do a ton of research. So I just want to ask you what is your favorite secret society or secret building that is true like a real secret society or building that you are fascinated with? And can you tell us about it?

Brad Meltzer: My favorite one is definitely the White House, the White House has the best secret passages, there’s not just one. Like you, I love secret passages. This is my other favorite below the U.S. Capitol. We all know the Capitol, of course, has the big dome and then those two kind of giant kind of wings on the side of it. That’s not how the Capitol was built. The Capitol was built just the dome and the center part. And then over the years, they added the Senate side and the House side. What you see on the sides of the Capitol. But at the time, when the Capitol was built, there was no such technology as air conditioning. So to cool down the Senate chamber and the House chamber, they drilled these huge underground tunnels that would bring air literally underground into the chamber. That was just how to get the smell out and fresh air in. And there was no air conditioning.

Brad Meltzer: And when they added those sides, they just kind of kept building on one and then on top of the other and they covered things up. And as a result, there were a huge catacombs that are below the U.S. Capitol today. Can’t call them on the public tours. But I went crawling around. I remember I was with the one of the people who can take you around the one of the historians of the Capitol. And we were on our I’m not joking on our stomachs and hands and knees crawling. I was in a suit, crawling on my elbows because the tunnel kept getting smaller and smaller and we kept going. He’s like, Let’s see where it leads. He didn’t even know where it led either, and we’re crawling on our knees. It was really, really fun, but that’s one of my favorite buildings out of everything.

Gabe Howard: So, Brad, I want to pose the exact same question to you, except change. True to untrue. What’s your favorite secret society or building that is just completely false?

Brad Meltzer: I love the Illuminati. I love those Freemason ghost stories, I love them because of the same reason you love them, because isn’t it fun to believe that there is something bigger out there that’s controlling it all? And I do believe that there are very powerful forces out there with lots of money that do pull certain strings, but not in that Dr. Evil Way. Not where everyone toasts like Montgomery Burns and says Gentlemen, holds his glass up, and says to evil. Those are the ones that I think have the biggest legs. I mean, the Illuminati is fascinating, really. The Illuminati kind of, as a story disappeared until about 15 years ago, and then it came on stronger than ever. And there’s a fascination in different communities, depending on where you’re from and what you like and who you think is in the Illuminati that it changes throughout the culture, but all these different slices of society want to believe it. And it’s made this huge comeback.

Brad Meltzer: I remember a big rap star contacted me to do a music video about the Illuminati that he was so obsessed with the Illuminati. The reason you and I are talking today is not just to talk about that, but to ask that question why? Why is that suddenly true? We said at the start, every conspiracy theory is a mirror and they’re mirrors of our fears. And I think we need to come up with stories to explain things so we can be settled at night. Ghost stories aren’t just fun to us. They’re like hero journeys. We need them. We need them to work through our fears. We need them to work through like everything we’re worried about, if you look historically just to switch it on its head and give you a better example. And the Great Depression, the biggest heroes that people used to love to read, were Tarzan and Flash Gordon. They were heroes designed to transport you elsewhere to the 25th century, to the jungles, because when the Great Depression happened, people didn’t want to be here. They wanted to escape to that jungle, to the 25th century. But as World War II started encroaching on our shores and America got scared of what was happening in Europe, this brand new basically red, white and blue hero appears. Red, yellow and blue hero appears named Superman.

Brad Meltzer: And Superman sells a million copies in one week and no one knows why. They can’t explain it, but I can. America’s scared. We want someone to come and save us. And if you look when 9/11 happened and everyone was terrified, we’d never be able to do any of these things again. What was the first movie that broke through the public consciousness? It was Spider-Man. We were once again a country that was scared and we were terrified and we wanted someone to come save us. And I truly believe, Gabe, that the reason why superhero movies are still, still going strong is because we’re still a culture that is so scared and terrified. We need those heroes in the same way we need those ghost stories. The public consciousness, in a psychological way, it’s like group therapy. We work through our fears through these awful stories and even the ones that you and I both know are ridiculous. But there’s some cosmic fear that’s being worked through.

Gabe Howard: My final question before we get out of here, though, is if you have somebody in your life who believes in the secret society, who believes in the conspiracy theory, who believes that one of your fiction books is actually the truth, you’re just not allowed to tell people that it’s the truth or you’ll be assassinated by a cabal. Do you have any advice for reaching those people and explaining everything that you’ve just explained to me?

Brad Meltzer: Oh, man, I’ve tried. I truly believe that when someone believes what they want to believe, it’s very hard to talk them down. I do have one advantage. I spent a lot of time talking to people because they do believe me. They trust me and I can sometimes get a little bit through. But listen, I’ve been at book signings where someone comes to me and brought me the holy grail at the book signing. They gave it to me. They had the holy grail. They wanted to give it to me. No one gets crazier email than me. No one gets crazier letters than me. I got a phone call one day from the family of John Wilkes Booth, who famously shot Abraham Lincoln. Everyone knows the story that when Abraham Lincoln was shot, 12 days later, John Wilkes Booth, his assassin was killed and they had the proof that he wasn’t killed. They got the wrong guy. Their relative, John Wilkes Booth, escaped. He went on the run and they have the proof of what happened. Brad, you want to hear that story? That’s what the lawyer of the family of John Wilkes Booth asked me. Yes, you better believe I want to hear that story. Gabe, you take that phone call. So no one hears the story. But when you have that person who just wants to believe the kooky crazy one, I wish I could give you good advice and say, here’s the magic thing to say. But I do think the answer is it’s not even the facts. Anyone can have, quote unquote facts with a website. It’s got to be something more human and logical than that. And that’s the hardest part to breakthrough. Because when people want to believe it, they believe it.

Gabe Howard: Ok, I lied. That wasn’t my last question. I want to hear if John Wilkes Booth lived.

Brad Meltzer: Yeah, you want to.

Gabe Howard: What was the outcome of that story?

Brad Meltzer: I know we did that, so we did actually one of the nonfiction was we did do a book on the secret plot to kill Abraham Lincoln before he was elected president, and that’s called “The Lincoln Conspiracy,” and it’s a really fun book. All facts, all true, 50 pages of footnotes. You’ll see everything documented. The thing about John Wilkes Booth and that story? I’ll leave you with this because it’s such a good ending. It was like a 90 something year old woman who basically said, you know, I was told when I was a little girl, 12 years old, You belong to the family of John Wilkes Booth. He’s your relative. You can’t ever tell anyone it’s a family secret. Take it to the grave. And here she was all these decades later, 90 years old, and she told us the story that was told to her. Why? Because she was going to the grave. She basically knew if she didn’t say the story was going to die with her. And I truly believe in my heart that this woman absolutely believed that what she was told was true. But the question was, was it true? And when you looked at the evidence, you should look up our Decoded episode on the Lincoln assassination, you’ll see that they provide the will and what is the secret identities were and there are a couple of secret identities that John Wilkes Booth supposedly had. One was John B. Wilkes was one of his names. If your name is John Wilkes Booth and your fake identity is John B. Wilkes, that’s like the worst fake ID that even kids today can make better ones than that. Like, that’s the worst fake ID name I’ve ever heard. But where it really fell apart is when they had his will that this is his last will and testament.

Brad Meltzer: This is it and the will when we examined it. The will was fascinating to read, but it was unsigned and back then signing your will was the way to make it legal. That had the equivalent of like getting someone to verify it. And you know, when you do a real legal document today and it just wasn’t signed. So I believe that she believed her story. But when you really dug down into the information, it wasn’t supported, but the questions do remain, then who’s in John Wilkes Booth’s grave? And to this day, this is the best cliffhanger I could leave you. All you got to do. They could dig down right now and go down to John Wilkes Booth’s grave, take his DNA and match it against the DNA stuff that they have from the guy who shot Lincoln. They have his blood and they have other DNA parts. But the government won’t allow it, and they won’t allow it because back then they used to bury bodies one on top of the other. And they’re worried that if you dig down, you’re going to get a false positive because you may dig into the body of someone else or a false negative. We don’t know how the bodies are there. Alll the DNA gets mixed at that point, the way the bodies used to be buried.

Gabe Howard: Brad, thank you. Thank you so much for this. Tell us about your next book where you can get it, when it’s coming out. Give us the details.

Brad Meltzer: Yeah, so it’s called “The Lightning Rod.” That is out now in bookstores everywhere and we do books for kids as well that are nonfiction books. Our kids books were “I am Muhammad Ali” and “I am Malala.” So between those, there’s plenty to read for anyone who’s going on a vacation anytime soon.

Gabe Howard: Oh, again, thank you so much, and everybody, you can check out his website at BradMeltzer.com. You can click on the kid version or the adult version. I thought that was really super cool.

Brad Meltzer: Thanks, Gabe.

Gabe Howard: You are very welcome. And a big thank you to all of our listeners. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations.” I’m also an award winning public speaker and I might be available for your next event. The book is on Amazon, or you can grab a signed copy with free show swag, or learn more about me, by heading over to my website, gabehoward.com. Wherever you downloaded this episode, please follow or subscribe to the show. It’s absolutely free and do me a favor, recommend the show, whether social media, email or good old fashioned word of mouth, I would appreciate it. I will see everybody next Thursday on Inside Mental Health.

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