Inside Bipolar Podcast: The Truth About Resilience

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Bipolar, a Healthline Media Podcast, where we tackle bipolar disorder using real-world examples and the latest research.

Gabe: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. My name is Gabe Howard and I live with bipolar disorder.

Dr. Nicole: And I’m Dr. Nicole Washington, a board-certified psychiatrist.

Gabe: There is a word that I hear all the time and I. I even as we sit here and prepare for this episode, I’m not sure if I’m being complimented or if I’m being insulted, or if it’s really one of those words that can be taken both ways. It’s confusing to me, is what I’m saying. And that word is resilience. And people say, Gabe, you’re so resilient. And I’m like, you know, like a hockey puck is resilient and it takes a beating. So are you saying that I can take a beating? I, I really don’t understand this, but it’s resiliency. Is this really, really popular phrase. What are your thoughts on it?

Dr. Nicole: You know what? I have mixed feelings about it. Because when I think about you, I do think that you’re resilient. I do. I think that there’s no way that you could have accomplished everything that you could have accomplished. When you talk about the things that you’ve gone through, if not for that resilience factor, like I think that you are resilient. However, I do think that sometimes when people use the word, they almost use it as a weapon or they use it as a way to not be there for you, and that’s when I don’t like it.

Gabe: We talk a lot about on this show, you know, different words and how we really need to be monitoring context. And I think resiliency is one of those great examples because when you said Dr. Nicole and you’re my colleague, we built this podcast together. We’ve worked together, you know, for a very long time. And we’ve accomplished a lot. And you’re like, Gabe, I. I think you’re resilient. And then I take into account the fact that you’re a psychiatrist and you really understand bipolar disorder. And I’m on cloud nine. Like, like all of a sudden I was like, never mind, it’s a compliment. But then you reminded me that a lot of people are like, oh, Gabe. So resilient. He doesn’t need anything. I

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Need a lot. I need a whole lot. And I do feel like sometimes the context is very dismissive, like, oh, just be resilient and you’ll be fine.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. As a physician, sometimes we, you know, we hear about how physicians are resilient, and a lot of physicians feel like that then creates this scenario whereby you feel like you don’t have to respond to our current physician mental health crisis, right? So because we’re resilient, we’ll bounce back, we’ll figure it out. We’ll adapt. So they don’t really need any support in that area. That is a negative, you know, as a black person in this country, a lot of times we talk about how resilient our underrepresented groups are and how resilient they are. Well, they’ve had to be resilient. Otherwise we wouldn’t still be here.

Gabe: Don’t get me wrong, I want to be resilient. I want to be able to withstand tough things. I mean, the definition is able to withstand or recover quickly from difficult conditions. I don’t think there’s anybody living with bipolar disorder that one doesn’t want to be. That, and two can’t relate to doing that. That’s the whole reason that we go to our doctor, Nicole’s, that we go to therapy so that we can bounce back from difficult situations.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: But where I, as somebody living with bipolar disorder, get frustrated is that it’s like, well, people with bipolar disorder are resilient. So therefore you should be able to bounce back. Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, wait wait wait a minute. You think that resiliency is a is what, like a, like a symptom of bipolar disorder? You think that resiliency comes along with bipolar? No no no no. If I am resilient, it is not because of bipolar disorder. It’s because I’ve put in a lot of hard work and because I have to be. I don’t think resilience is something that people want. I think resilience is something that people do because they have no other choice.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. We’d love to all be in situations where we don’t need to be resilient, where life just goes really well and according to schedule and as planned. We’d love to not have to flex our resiliency muscle. We would 100% like to do that.

Gabe: It really reminds me of like, if you get hurt right

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Now and I’m speaking as an almost 50-year-old man, and I’m going back to my childhood, and I would get hurt and somebody would come up to me and say, Gabe, you’re a strong man. You can get over that. Gabe, you’re a strong man. That didn’t hurt. Walk it off, Gabe. You’re a strong man. And you’re probably thinking like, wow, that sounds like really toxic masculinity because we’ve learned a lot in the ensuing decades. But I want to tell you that it cuts both ways. On one hand, I do want to be strong. I don’t want to be injured for life. I don’t I don’t want to be hurting. I want to be able to walk it off. But I also don’t like the fact that you’re dismissing my injury. I just got hurt. You’re clearly aware that I got hurt, and instead of discussing that, I got hurt and how to prevent it or how to console me, you’re instead telling me to be tough And

Gabe: Whenever I hear this resiliency talk, I feel like nobody wants to address the trauma of a bipolar diagnosis, or the trauma of suicidality, or the trauma of depression. The trauma of mania. No no no no no no no. They want to fast forward and skip ahead to the part where you’re over it, and then compliment you for getting over it. But they don’t really want to discuss the journey, so

Gabe: They’re

Gabe: Willing to acknowledge that you have bipolar disorder and that you went through some stuff, and they’re willing to talk about the fact that you got over it, but that middle piece is missing. And that’s where I feel that it’s very dismissive and lacking.

Dr. Nicole: From people who are very close to you, who have that level of intimacy with you, I think you’re right. It it’s hard. So for the for the loved ones listening, you know, this is for you. It is very helpful for your loved one to hear you say how resilient you think they are for people who love you. I think that’s great. I mean, wouldn’t you want to hear that from your family? Don’t you want to hear your people that love you say, wow, okay. You know, like, you’ve done so great. I think it’s great to hear people talk about your resiliency, but I think you also have to, in that same breath, say, but what can I do for you? Like I realized that you’re resilient and that you’ve done all these things and you’ve accomplished so much, but is there anything I can do to aid in your resilience? Is there anything that I can do to help you during this time? Because sometimes folks just get tired and they’ve been resilient. And maybe this is a time where that resiliency muscle is not quite as strong. It is. It is not able to be flexed like it has before. Maybe this particular thing that has taken them down this time is a little bit different. They’re in a different space. I think you can celebrate somebody’s resilience, but also be there to find out, well, what can I do to aid in your resilience?

Gabe: I want to specifically answer your question about how would I like it if a member of my family told me that I was resilient and I’m going to give two answers? One, yes, I would like that. I would like it now, though I wouldn’t have liked it in the beginning because in the beginning I they did not understand bipolar disorder. They

Gabe: Did not understand what I went through. They did not understand my fears. They did not understand my concerns. They just.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Came out of the woodwork with all these platitudes. You can do it. You’re strong. Pick yourself up. I’ve never seen you wilt in front of a challenge. And that did not feel like a compliment to me. That felt dismissive.

Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes.

Gabe: Once I once I got the feeling that they understood,

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Then it made a world of difference again. I’m going to go back to you at the beginning. You’re a psychiatrist and I respect you a lot. So you telling me that I’m resilient means a lot to me. But if I had somebody who was a member of the anti-psychiatry movement, somebody who didn’t believe in mental illness, somebody who didn’t believe in bipolar disorder, somebody who constantly said things like, this is fake. It’s all in your mind. Just,

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Just, you know, stop it. You’re believing big Pharma. And then they said I was resilient. Well, I would just take that as an immediate insult. And I think that’s what people don’t understand. I really think resiliency has become just this throwaway cliche. And that’s sort of a shame, because the word does have a lot of power, and I’m sad to see that watered down.

Dr. Nicole: So it sounds like your point is context matters. Of course we context matters. We have to read the room. But it sounds like what we’re saying for the person who’s living with bipolar disorder, you just tell me if I’m wrong because I’m trying to make sure I understand this. What we’re saying is that for the person living with bipolar disorder, especially early on in their illness, it’s unfair to that person and their experience to compare their diagnosis of bipolar disorder. They’re conquering in air quotes their bipolar disorder with any previous things they’ve had to deal with in life. Because there are apples and oranges, they’re not the same.

Gabe: I think it boils down to toxic positivity. I think you’ve got most of it.

Dr. Nicole: Okay.

Gabe: I think when somebody is going through a hard time and all you want to tell them is how it’s going to be okay and how it’s going to be positive. It’s

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Not as helpful as people think. And one of the things that I don’t think people understand about bipolar disorder, and I’m including in my bipolar peeps in this is just how long this takes. I would be willing to lay some pretty serious money that there’s people listening with bipolar right now that don’t realize this is going to take years, so they don’t even realize yet that these cliches are about to catch up with them because it sounds so reasonable. Oh, you were just diagnosed with a serious illness. You’re going to be okay and you can do it. Oh thank you. And I think this puts people behind the proverbial eight ball because they think that they just have to try really hard and be positive. And they will beat bipolar disorder. And it doesn’t work that way. And I do think it sets up people to fail. I think it set me up to fail because Dr. Nicole I truly believed that. I just had to think positive, follow my Dr. Nicole’s orders and I’d

Gabe: Be fine. And if only it was that simple, we wouldn’t even need a podcast if it was that simple.

Dr. Nicole: But I think our loved ones, they don’t know what to say. They’re at a loss for words. They want to be encouraging and, and I don’t, I don’t think most of them are trying to be dismissive. I mean there may be some people who are like okay bipolar disorder you know, figure it out. You know, take your meds, do what you’re supposed to do, it’ll be fine. But those are also probably the pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of. We don’t listen to those people. They don’t. They don’t know what they’re talking about. But I think most family members, most people that love you after a diagnosis, they just don’t know what to say. So they want to say things like, yes, this may be hard for this may be hard. This is going to be a long road. But we believe in you. We believe that you can thrive despite this diagnosis. Is that a bad thing to say that to a loved one?

Gabe: I don’t think it’s a bad thing, but I think it can potentially be premature and or incomplete. So one of the things that I think that we misunderstand about bipolar disorder is that bipolar disorder can be bad and something good can come out of it, and I think we miss that. So for example, bipolar disorder is bad, but

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Me managing my symptoms, learning to understand it, and creating this podcast with you was good. And I would not be sitting here if it wasn’t for bipolar disorder. Both of those things can be true that we’re literally sitting here right now because 20 some years ago I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. That is a good thing that came from it. Undeniable. But if we give all the credit to bipolar disorder, we’ve gone too far.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: But if we give none of the credit to bipolar disorder, then we haven’t acknowledged a core truth that the things that happen to us inform our life decisions and inspire us. So to get back to your very specific question, is it bad if your family members compliment you? Absolutely not. But if they’re not helping you with those compliments, then it’s sort of like looking at somebody who’s stuck in a hole and saying, oh my God, I believe that you can get out of it. And then leaving them there. You’re not

Dr. Nicole: Okay.

Gabe: Going to get help. You’re not going to get a rope, you’re not going to get a ladder. You’re literally just leaving them in the hole because you believe in them. And I think that’s how a lot of people with bipolar disorder feel.

Dr. Nicole: So you can say the words, But there must be action behind the words.

Gabe: Back it up.

Dr. Nicole: There has to be support behind. There has. You got to practice what you preach. You got to talk to you talking to talk. You got to walk the walk. All that good stuff. Right? Which is how when I talk about resilience, how I feel about the systems, because I feel like the systems let us down because the systems are like, oh, but they’re so resilient. Look, look, look at everything they can accomplish. They’re so resilient. We don’t have to provide extra case management support. They don’t need those RSS people. They don’t need those recovery support people, those peer specialists. They’re going to be fine because they have all these other things. So your family members, your loved ones are in that same in that same vein, we’re saying if you’re going to give me all the lip service about how resilient I am and how I’ve overcome things, then you need to be there to support me through all that stuff.

Gabe: I think that is where resiliency gets let down. People think that it’s enough all by itself and it’s not. I think complimenting me is a great thing. Pointing out my resilience is a great thing, but it still needs to come with resources. And I, I believe, like you believe, Dr. Nicole, that more often than not we say, well, I think people can do it on their own. They’re very resilient. They’re very tough, they’re very capable. And that’s why we’re going to cut this funding and deny them these resources. And then when they fail, we don’t say oh, we made a mistake. We blamed them for not being resilient. And I think a lot of people with bipolar disorder, specifically the people who are still listening to this topic on this show, they feel very trapped by this word because maybe they don’t feel resilient, and yet the entire system is telling them that they should be. Well, once again, I think resiliency needs to be taught as well.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: I’m not resilient because bipolar disorder made me resilient. I’m not resilient because I was born resilient. I’m resilient because I was forced to be. That’s number one. And number two because people gave me skills. There was a lot of Dr. Nicoles, a lot of therapists, a lot of peer support specialists, a lot of groups, a lot of friends, a lot of family members, a lot of articles, a lot of podcasts that all inspired me to try. And even then I failed. That’s the other thing. Resilience is always looked at as like magical force field that prevents you from failure. You know you can fail and still be resilient.

Dr. Nicole: So you don’t feel that there are people who are. What’s the word I’m looking for that are I guess it’s the old nature versus nurture with resilience. So you don’t think that there are people who, for whatever reason, are just born with? I don’t know, for lack of a better term, the resilience gene. You don’t think that there are people out there who? Because I think it’s so vague and broad and such an abstract concept that I don’t know that we always know, like, how is this person able to survive these really horrible things? How?

Gabe: I do think that some people are naturally more resilient than others, but I also think that people are naturally more a lot of things than others. For

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Example, I have no natural drawing ability, but if I practice, I can be better than I am now. Now other people with zero practice whatsoever are incredible artists, but they can still improve as well.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: Let’s draw this into professional sports. And the reason that I say that is because there watch 24/7. We film their practices, we film their eating habits, we film their everything. And even elite athletes don’t perform the same way year after year. And the pundits are all over it. They’re like, well, I’m not surprised. You know, he got married this year and he took all this time off and we saw him eating chicken wings, and his performance went down 10%. And I can’t help think that that that 1% body fat, weight gain year, season over season contributed to that. What do you think, Donald? Well, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, he really took his eye off the prize. We’re not underestimating or removing that raw talent,

Gabe: But that 1% body fat did him in or the aging process or whatever. And I only use sports because of just how much we talk about it in our society and how much we nitpick at every little thing. And finally, because we’re starting to realize that a player’s mental health

Gabe: Can impact how well they play. But your base premise of are some people naturally gifted? Yeah. Yeah, some some people just get lucky.

Dr. Nicole: I do actually believe it’s both. I believe that there’s a bit of both nature and nurture.Which is why it frustrates me so much when the systems let us down and they say, well, you’re resilient, you don’t need this support. Or in your example, when we talked about loved ones, when they just kind of say, okay, you got it, we believe in you and they turn around and walk away. I think the systems and our support systems, I think they don’t always realize that those are, I guess, to make the comparison. Those are the art lessons. Those are the moments that help you develop the skills to be resilient. So you can learn resilience. But it requires a lot of support. It requires it requires the right environment. It requires the it just requires so much support all the way around that when we take those things away, that that’s where I don’t understand why we don’t get it. It’s both. It’s nature and nurture.

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Dr. Nicole: And we’re back discussing resilience and bipolar disorder.

Gabe: I really love the nature versus nurture debate. Hard stop. But since this is a bipolar podcast and we’re talking about resiliency, the whole debate about nature versus nurture in resiliency is very interesting to me. I don’t know anything about nature. I’m not a scientist. I didn’t go to medical school. I don’t know what makes people innately more resilient or embrace these concepts easier than others. But let’s go over to the nurture. I think that there are many things in our society that contribute to how resilient we are, things that are out of our control. I have to disclose being a white male is going to make me more resilient than other members of the population. It’s just a privilege that I was just born into. It was inherent and lucky, being middle class, having a good family. All of these things give me confidence and resources that are naturally going to make me more resilient. I don’t know if that falls under nature or nurture, but I got to tell you, there’s just a lot of unfair things, I think, and I think that’s worth noting on this podcast.

Dr. Nicole: There are definitely environmental things, system things that can add to a person’s resilience. So I think you’re 100% correct. When we think about the nature part, you know, we do have to think, are there genetic predispositions out there. Does a person have I mean, I joked about there being a resiliency gene, but do we know that there isn’t something genetically that that makes a person a little bit more resilient than another? We don’t there may be other biological factors that we aren’t aware of. It may be just an innate personality or temperament thing for you that that just sets you up to be more resilient. Those are the nature things. But you’re 100% right, the environmental factors and maybe some of the nature things set you up to thrive more in the environment. So if you have the resources, if you are a white male, you know in this country things may be a little bit more accessible or easier for you. So it is your biology and the nature part of it that that allows you to be nurtured a little bit more in the world that we live in.

Gabe: I do think that we need to understand the interconnected nature of sex, race, socioeconomic status, culture in resiliency. And that’s a very difficult thing to understand. But I don’t want to delve too far into it in the podcast because we’re not experts in that, and that’s not what the show is about. But I think it’s really important that we acknowledge that resiliency is not one size fits all. What one culture or one age group or one gender considers resilience may look very different in another culture, and another gender and another age group in another family. For good. Let’s just boil it down to what our families consider to be resilience. And that’s obviously going to impact how we feel. I guess I just want to really acknowledge that this isn’t a one size fits all thing, which is one of the reasons that we just can’t give you a definition of this is resilience, and this is not resilience, although that podcast would be infinitely more interesting. At least it would be definitive.

Dr. Nicole: It would be definitive and likely wrong.

Gabe: And likely wrong. I like that you said, and likely wrong, because I do think that some of our listeners have an idea of what they believe resiliency is, because they’ve absorbed those messages from other people, or they read it on the internet, or they heard it on a podcast. We have to be much more nimble than that. Resiliency can be as simple as I got out of bed this morning, I resisted the urge to stay in bed all day, and I got up and got dressed. That is an incredible amount of resilience for people who are experiencing bipolar depression, and I think we need to acknowledge that.

Dr. Nicole: Agreed. We don’t give people credit for the little things, and we think of resilience sometimes as, oh, I’m so resilient. I have a career and a spouse, and I own a house, and I own two cars, and I take my kids on vacation. But there were very small things that people do on a day-to-day basis when dealing with their bipolar disorder, that are small signs of their resilience, and you just build on those small things until we can get to those bigger things.

Gabe: One of the reasons that I want to make sure that that people understand that it can be learned is because I don’t want somebody who was not gifted with resilient like me. I was not gifted with resilience. This this was this did not come easy to me. I was ready to quit immediately. I do think that society and especially people making decisions, they just believe that people with mental illness are just so filled with resiliency that this is an outcome. This

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: Is because we have to be because you’ve abandoned us.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: I’m not blaming you personally, Dr. Nicole, but unfortunately, you’re on that side of the aisle.

Dr. Nicole: I am on that side.

Gabe: I. But you understand what I’m saying? Like, we’re all resilient because we were forced to be. And it’s. That’s what I mean by it’s this double-edged sword. I want to be resilient. Yay! But now you’re denying me basic human rights. Because, after all, I’ll just figure it out. Because I’m so resilient.

Dr. Nicole: And we can’t put a timeline on it. We can’t say that you should bounce back quicker than this, but that’s what the system does because they have to set parameters and define things. So they say, oh, you can only get this many sessions of this particular treatment option, because that’s about how long it should take you to recover. And B that’s your bounce back time. You get this many sessions. That’s what it should be. You know, our loved ones are like, listen, we’ve been here with you for the past year, but you know, we don’t know. Can we keep doing this? Like, why is it taking you so long? Why can’t you pull it together? We need to be mindful of the fact that it can take time. I mean, I can’t draw a straight line with a ruler. My biggest art accomplishment are those little hand turkeys I learned how to draw in elementary school. That’s all I got. That’s it. That’s all I got. If I took art lessons, believe you and me, it would take forever for me to learn how to put something out that was that was at least worth looking at. So everything that we’re learning to do, whether it’s drawing as we’ve talked about or just how to how to be more resilient, those things take time and everybody’s timeline is going to be different.

Gabe: I want to pull as much out of this analogy as we can. Dr. Nicole, you said that the best art that you could do was those hand turkeys. I would like to point out we were taught that trick. You

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: Know, we were taught to outline our hand. And then if we did it a certain way and we put the little what are those things called that are on roosters little gobbly thingy. Little, little, little rooster feathers. Right. If we decorated it right, it would look like a turkey. That’s not something we invented.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: Could you imagine if we looked at a whole room full of three- and four-year-olds and just said, make turkeys, and then we judge them on what their turkeys looked like because it’s not innate to trace your hand and add that that’s something that we had to be shown. But

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Because all of us were shown it, we got our first taste of art.

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: The issue that I’ve always had with resiliency is it really just reminds me of platitudes and cliches. And you can do it. It’s it’s it’s not even as robust as trace your hand and turn it into a turkey. It’s even less than that. And that really bothers me, Dr. Nicole, because a lot of people living with bipolar disorder are expected to know how to make the turkey. And the people that have been given the little trick, the people that have been told to trace their hands, they think they’re superior because they’ve been given the trick, and they think we’re inferior, and they’re not acknowledging that we haven’t been taught the trace your hand trick. And that’s what really leaves us vulnerable. And I mean vulnerable from society and vulnerable from ourselves.

Dr. Nicole: I think resilience just speaks to your ability to adapt in spite of the thing. And I think like it’s in spite of. So yeah, I’m resilient in spite of this really crummy thing that happened to me. It happened. It’s bad. I mean, you’ve mentioned how in in previous episodes you’ve talked about how just because I’m surviving and thriving in this thing, it doesn’t mean I don’t wish I never was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I mean, it doesn’t mean that you recognize that this is crummy. This is terrible. I have to sit with it. It’s not going anywhere. This is not something I’m going to get over. This is something I’m going to move through. And in a lot of ways, with bipolar disorder, you’re not even moving through it. You’re like walking side by side with it all the time. You’re walking, keeping your eye on it at all times because you know it’s there. Post-traumatic growth is more of like, I’m better because of this thing that happened to me. So maybe they’re very distant cousins instead of first or second cousins, because that actually says like, oh yeah, I’m a better individual and a better human because I have bipolar disorder. And I, I mean, I, I don’t know anybody with bipolar disorder who would tell me I’m a better person because of my illness. I just don’t know anyone like that.

Gabe: I do think that that is giving bipolar disorder way too much credit, but I think maybe you’re taking it too big. Right. So in post-traumatic growth, we talk a lot about how one of the biggest traumas that befalls the average person is the death of a loved one. And

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: Then people say, you use post-traumatic growth so that you are better after they pass away. Now, some people could interpret that as, oh, well, then their death made you better. No no no no no no no. Post-traumatic growth teaches us that their life made you better. Their teachings, it made you better. And you accepting that death is a natural part of what we’re going through as humans. It’s a natural part of the human experience and remembering who they were and what they meant to you and continuing to move forward made you better. The death still sucks.

Dr. Nicole: And I do believe that there are things about people that get better after a traumatic experience, that there are things that can improve. So I would say for somebody who has a history of bipolar disorder, you’ve been hospitalized. You’ve met people and seen people and had conversations with people. You probably would never have sat down and had a conversation with. Aside from being on that inpatient unit and getting to know people, I would say I know patients personally who have felt like their life has been forever changed by those experiences. And yes, the negative of I was involuntarily hospitalized. I was given medication. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. That’s the bad part. But they also have a better appreciation for people in general. And they come out of those experiences saying, you know, I’ve been very judgmental in my life about people and their experiences, and I feel like I’m a little bit of a more compassionate person now, and that is a thing that I would not have experienced had I not had that experience. So I do believe that there are there are things about people that they can say have improved. Maybe you value the people around you more. Maybe you learn to nurture those relationships more. Maybe you’ve learned to value your own accomplishments more because you’ve it’s been harder for you to achieve things. Maybe those are things that are positive that can come out of it, but I do think the line gets blurred sometimes. And with the way we see people talk about post-traumatic growth sometimes, maybe they overshoot with how they talk about it in a way that’s like, well, that doesn’t make sense.

Gabe: I think it’s really important to understand that you can still think that something is bad and learn from it. Bipolar disorder and being diagnosed with bipolar disorder and my feelings of worthlessness and loneliness and feeling like garbage, and thinking that my mother and grandmother would be happy at my funeral if I had died by suicide. All of those things are terrible. They are terrible and they’re awful. And I am so incredibly sad that I had to go through them, because now I realize how unnecessary it was that if I could have just gotten help sooner, I could have potentially saved myself from going through that trauma. But I can’t go backwards. All of those things did happen to me. And as I understand post-traumatic growth and resiliency, and one of the reasons that I do cling to it ever so slightly is because it was a wonderful feeling to learn that my mother and grandmother would have been devastated if I died. Truly understanding what I mean to them is a gift, and being able to articulate back how much they meant to me, how much they mean to me, is also a gift.

Dr. Nicole: You have to be in the right spaces to build that resilience, to be able to even recognize the, the things in you that have improved since your diagnosis. You have to be in the right space for that to be made clear to you, because sometimes you don’t even see those things in that way. Sometimes you need somebody to point that stuff out to you because you can’t always see it. Gabe and I can’t do that for you. You need to be in community with people that can do that for you and can provide that for you. You got to be in the right space.

Gabe: The last thing that I want to touch on before we mosey off into the sunset, Dr. Nicole, is how resiliency is active, and I think a lot of people hear it as passive. I

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Think in order to be truly resilient, you have to be doing things. And

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: I think more often than not, we think resiliency is like a force field that builds around us and it protects us. I think resiliency is an act. It’s an act of us doing something. It’s an act of us being resilient. And I don’t I don’t think it’s a force field. I’m curious as to your thoughts on that because the internet is decidedly mixed on this.

Dr. Nicole: I believe it is active. It’s something you have to keep working at. It’s like recovery. Recovery is not. Oh, I’m here and I’m done. I don’t have to do any of the things. Recovery is active. Being in recovery is an active thing. Being resilient, working on your resiliency, building those skills, putting yourself in the right environments for your resiliency to shine. Those things require work and it never ends. So no, I agree with you 100%.

Gabe: I want to make sure that everybody listening knows that if you’re not resilient, you can become resilient. And no matter where your level of resiliency is, it just determines how much work you have to put in.

Gabe: Nobody said that this wasn’t going to be work. I, I would love to tell you that there are naturally resilient people who aren’t putting in any work, but I, I think that’s one of those overnight success stories

Gabe: Where people are like, oh, yesterday I was nothing and today I was something. But then when you dig a little deeper, you find out that in order to become an overnight success, they’ve been working on it for ten years and on and on and on and on. Recovery is active. Resilience is a skill that you can learn. Some people are better at it than others. And also resilience doesn’t mean never fail. Resilience doesn’t mean never get caught in the storm. Resilience doesn’t mean you never have a slip up or a symptom or an issue. It just means that you are resilient enough to recover from it. And those are skills that can be taught and can be learned. I wish that we could teach you how to be resilient in a single episode of the Inside Bipolar podcast, but if that were the case, Dr. Nicole and I would just have dump trucks of money.

Dr. Nicole: Yes we would. We are not that great. Let me just tell you, we’re not that great. I mean, we’re pretty great, but we’re not that great.

Gabe: Oh Dr. Nicole, we are pretty great. And if you think we’re great, here is what we would like you to do. First, wherever you downloaded this episode, please follow or subscribe to the show. It is absolutely free, and it’s the only way to guarantee that you don’t miss future episodes. The next thing that we need you to do is recommend the show to people. Share your favorite episodes on social media, send them in an email. Hell, send somebody a text. Share us in a support group. Sharing the show with the people you know is how we’re going to grow. My name is Gabe Howard, and I’m an award-winning public speaker, and I could be available for your next event. I also wrote the book “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations,” which you can get on Amazon because everything’s there. But if you want to get a signed copy and get some free swag, or if you just want to learn more about me, head over to my website gabehoward.com. You can also follow me on TikTok and Instagram @AskABipolar.

Dr. Nicole: And I’m Dr. Nicole Washington. You can find me on all social media platforms @DrNicolePsych to see all the things I have my hand in at any given moment.

Gabe: And we will see everybody next time on Inside Bipolar.

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