Inside Bipolar Podcast: Navigating Friendships and Support: Building a Balanced Bipolar Support System

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Bipolar, a Healthline Media Podcast, where we tackle bipolar disorder using real-world examples and the latest research.

Gabe: Hey everybody and welcome to the podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I live with bipolar disorder.

Dr. Nicole: And I’m Dr. Nicole Washington, a board-certified psychiatrist.

Gabe: And today’s topic is a little difficult for me. I want to disclose to the audience I have some discomfort with some of my feelings, and I’m afraid to be thrown out of my group. Like I want to toe the party line and say that 100% of peer support, 100% of support from our fellow people with bipolar disorder is 100% good 100% of the time. But that’s not what this episode is about. It’s about the percentage of time that it’s not so good. And I, I have feelings on this because I want to be a bipolar cheerleader.

Dr. Nicole: You can absolutely be a bipolar cheerleader, but I think it’s perfectly healthy for you to recognize that sometimes the things that we want in our lives are not the healthiest things for us.

Gabe: I get that. But you know as well as I do that whenever you say, hey, I learned something about my illness from somebody else with bipolar disorder, people immediately poo-poo that. They’re just like, well, you can’t trust it. They could lie that that couldn’t be. How do you know it’s right? And you also know that people with bipolar disorder, they need their peeps. We need to be able to sit in a room and vent and not have somebody try to reframe it or challenge it.

Dr. Nicole: Well, I think they’re like, make up your mind, but like, make up your mind. Either you want us to find support in other people with bipolar disorder. You’re always talking about building community. And then now today you’re saying, well, maybe that’s not a good idea.

Gabe: And I want to address that because I feel that the two factions that are out there right now, the pro peer support, which is a good group, and I am proud to be a member of that group. Right. I want them to continue promoting peer support in a meaningful way. But the other side has points as well, and I, I sometimes don’t like to concede that ground because then they take too much. So what I want to specifically say is I really look at building your support team, like building a football team. If you look out on the field and you’ve only got quarterbacks, you need to go find a receiver. You need to go find a kicker, you need to go find whatever other. Apparently, I don’t know much about football.

Dr. Nicole: You need some defensive players, you need

Gabe: You need some defensive players.

Dr. Nicole: Some defensive players. You need a whole team.

Gabe: Right? You need a whole team.

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: So if some if I, if I was interviewing a coach and they were only talking about how quarterbacks were the only position, that was important, I would say to that person, I think you’ve misunderstood the goal here. And if that person said, well, then you hate quarterbacks, that would complicate the conversation. And that’s where I feel we are, because I think a lot of people with bipolar disorder, they’re like, hey, I’m getting great support. I feel really good. I’m understood. And that has so much value. So why would I talk to anybody else? And that’s the intersection right there, because now you’ve only got a quarterback and I want you to round out your team and I want you to understand the limitations of only having people with bipolar disorder in your corner.

Dr. Nicole: Oh, I think that makes a lot of sense when you when you think of it that way, that makes a lot of sense. I still think it’s hard for people to actually figure out how to do that, that that’s where I think that’s where I think it becomes very tricky for most of the people I see. I think people have a really hard time figuring out how to recruit people for my team. Like how do I know which person with bipolar disorder to listen to and which one to not listen to? That’s where it gets a little bit tricky.

Gabe: You are absolutely right and it’s so tricky, we did a whole episode on this called “Five People For Your Support Team (That You Coach),” and the whole episode is about the different types of people that you need on your support team. So we don’t want to just rehash that episode, so I recommend highly. You check out that episode after you’re done listening to this one. And again, it’s called “Five People For Your Support Team (That You Coach).” Great episode. Let’s talk about the specific position of your bipolar support buddy. Your bipolar buddy and what you’re looking for in there and why. It’s important to understand that they can’t be your only source. So the first thing that I want to do, Dr. Nicole, is forget about bipolar disorder,

Dr. Nicole: Okay.

Gabe: Right? Forget about bipolar disorder. Forget about mental illness.

Dr. Nicole: Okay.

Gabe: Forget about everything.

Dr. Nicole: Okay.

Gabe: And let’s talk about corporate leadership training.

Dr. Nicole: Oh.

Gabe: Are you excited? Are you excited? Dr. Nicole, for my corporate leadership training.

Dr. Nicole: I mean, not really.

Gabe: In the middle of an Inside Bipolar podcast?

Dr. Nicole: Not really. But now I’m invested. So go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Gabe: So, all across America right. Corporate leaders are discussing this thing called siloing getting caught in the echo chamber. And it’s basically where leaders are only talking to other leaders. And the reason that this is bad is because leaders tend to think alike. They tend to be cut from the same cloth. They have the same challenges the same day to day, and they’re not seeing what their workers are seeing. They’re

Dr. Nicole: Okay.

Gabe: Not seeing what their customers are seeing. They’re only seeing things through the leadership lens. And I think that we’ve all had a boss that clearly doesn’t understand what our day to day is like, and they come to us and they ask us to do something, and we think that is unreasonable, but we try to explain it to them and they don’t want to hear it because they’re caught in the echo chamber where all of the other leaders are clapping them on the back and saying, you did a great job, you did a great job. And then when you complain, they go back to the leader and their other leader friends and they’re like, well, your workers unreasonable. Your worker is a complainer. I’m using this analogy because I think we’ve all had that boss. We’ve

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: All had that supervisor, that shift manager.

Dr. Nicole: Yep.

Gabe: We’ve all been stuck with this person that clearly doesn’t want to hear our point of view, because they only want to preach to the choir, which is the quickest way to give that analogy. They’re literally just preaching to the choir, and they’re not actually affecting any real change. I think people with bipolar disorder who are only talking to other people with bipolar disorder get dragged down by that.

Dr. Nicole: So the person living with bipolar disorder who is only getting their advice from the people they met in the support groups, the people they befriended while they were on the inpatient unit, the the random people they meet along the way at the clubhouse. They are siloing. So they’re not getting not always good information.

Gabe: Is a very doctor-y way of putting that. See, I would have added a little more pizzazz and razzle dazzle, but yes. Yes. So, you know, one of the hardest things for me, and I think you and I have talked about this before, Dr. Nicole when, when you had my mom on the show, one of the hardest things for me is that I was only talking to other people with bipolar disorder. And when my, my mom would come at me with complaints and issues, it’s not that I wasn’t taking them seriously, I was taking them very seriously. And then I would go talk to other people with bipolar disorder and say, you’re not going to believe what my parents did. Right. And then they’d be like, well, yeah, my parents do that to me too. And it makes me feel awful. It makes me feel awful. And then we all vent about how awful we feel. We didn’t actually make any progress to resolving it. It wasn’t until years later that I got into this job. I got into interviewing

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: People and talking to people, and I started talking to parents, and they started to explain to me how awful they felt.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Then it clicked. It never occurred to me that my mother felt awful, that my mother was scared, that my mother was anything. And in fact, I sort of saw my mom as like a superhero. She was the strong one. She had all the answers. She wasn’t suffering in any way. She was making me suffer. And that’s the exact same vantage point of all my little bipolar buddies. Now. My little bipolar buddies were great. They helped. I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.I needed them, I needed support, I felt terrible,

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: But as soon as a different person explained to me that mothers could be scared, that was a game changer in my recovery, and it was a game changer in my relationship with my mom.

Dr. Nicole: It is valuable to have a wide range of people you know on your team. Every role has value. Every role on our team adds value. I don’t think we can argue with that, but I don’t want people to walk away from this episode or get frustrated thinking, well, Gabe just thinks that I shouldn’t have any friends who have bipolar disorder and that any contact with someone who has bipolar disorder should be someone who’s a peer support person, like a formally trained peer support person. Now, I will say I love a good formally trained peer support person because I think they hold yet a different role on the team, even though that may be someone who may or may not have bipolar disorder.

Gabe: So you’re differentiating between a certified peer recovery supporter who has mental health experience

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: Versus just the person with bipolar disorder that you meet on the streets,

Dr. Nicole: Yes. And I think that’s.

Gabe: The streets.

Dr. Nicole: On the streets. Yes. When you are out running the streets. Yes. And I think that’s necessary because those are two separate people. A lot of times in your life, the peer support person is going to hold a more formal role. They more than likely honestly will not be your buddy or your friend. They will likely hold a more formal place on your treatment team. Probably they will likely be more along those lines than just a friend. So I do think it’s important to separate those two. And I do think that I don’t want to discourage people from making friends. Like I’m always encouraging my patients to get out, be social, make friends, and who in the heck do you think that a person with bipolar disorder depending on upbringing, severity of illness, depending on how long they’ve been ill. You know, all of those things play a part. But a great number of my patients who have bipolar disorder, they are just more comfortable being friends with other people who have illness because it just eliminates all the riff raff. They don’t have to worry about, oh, what’s this person going to say when I tell them I have bipolar disorder? Or especially if they’re meeting them in support groups, it just takes a layer of stress off of the whole interaction. And we’ve talked in the past about making friends when you have bipolar disorder, and that is really difficult for a lot of people. It just depends. There’s a lot of things that go into that.

Gabe: All very, very good points. You’re going to meet a lot of people with bipolar disorder, and it may be completely irrelevant. Just because you both have bipolar disorder doesn’t mean that they’re your support at all. They might just be your coworker who just happens to have bipolar disorder. I’m really reminded. I have a friend who’s a child psychologist and, you know, obviously she got her PhD. She worked as a child psychologist. And then one day she had a kid and everything was going along fine. But she started using her child psychology brain on her child, and conflict arose. Issues arose. And she was like, well, but developmentally there should be this, etc.. And I said, the problem is, is you’re looking at your kid like a patient that you you’ve got to decide, are you your child’s psychologist or are you your child’s mother? And you have to you have to stay in that lane. And that can be very, very difficult. So I think what you’re saying, Dr. Nicole, is it’s absolutely okay to have a friend who lives with bipolar disorder and in fact, you encourage it. It’s great to have things in common. There’s a great shorthand. It’s great for venting, but you need to remember that they’re not your Dr. Nicole. They’re not

Gabe: Your therapist. They’re not your source of medication. They’re not your they might not even be support in the medical sense. They might just be support in the friendship sense. So making sure that you put them in the correct spot is really, really important. But that sometimes and this I think is where I’m coming in and what I’m trying to say sometimes we elevate our bipolar buddies to a level that’s inappropriate, where we start taking medical advice from them.

Dr. Nicole: No that that happens a lot. And that is it is always interesting conversation to have with patients when they start making the adjustments to their regimen, or they start making suggestions to you on their treatment based on their friend. And it is a fine line, right? Like people come in and say, hey, I have a friend who is taking Blankety Blank and they’re doing great. And you haven’t recommended Blankety Blank to me. You know, why is that? And, you know, a lot of times it comes down to this. You have a friend who has bipolar disorder, and that is that person’s bipolar disorder. It’s kind of like when we say, you know, if you’ve met one person with bipolar disorder, you’ve met one person with bipolar disorder. Everything cannot be extrapolated to every person. You then meet with bipolar disorder. While you do have some things that are in common, some symptoms, they don’t always manifest in the same ways in every one. So what I’m doing for you may not work out Like what that person is doing. It’s just very different. There’s nothing wrong with taking those ideas and saying, hey, this person did great on this. You might bring it to me. And I say, oh, well, that wouldn’t be a terrible idea. You know, we could look into doing that and we could move this for this. Like, sometimes it might work out. Sometimes it might not. I just don’t want you to hang your hat on. Well, that person’s bipolar disorder was cured with this. You know that person? They don’t even have it anymore. Their symptoms are gone. They haven’t had an episode in years. I don’t want you to get so bogged down on that for that person that it breaks up what we have going on. And so you’re right. Like, everybody has a role and it can be tough. It is very, very tricky.

Gabe: I always have to remind myself, and I’m very guilty of this, where I’ll say things like, people with bipolar disorder can and I’m speaking for a really large group. And then in my next sentence, I’ll say things like people with bipolar disorder aren’t all the same. We all have different goals and dreams. If you have that friend with bipolar disorder and you’re like, well, I want to be same, same, they’re doing really well. I want to do really well. So I’m going to model my recovery after theirs. I feel very strongly that that’s going to set you up to fail really, really hard and to say it in a different way. I really look up to Dr. Nicole. I have a lot of respect for her, but if I started modeling my decisions after Dr. Nicole, I’m going to fail because I’m not a board-certified psychiatrist. Just because we’re both doing well in the mental health field doesn’t make us the same. I would say your student loan debt probably proves that.

Dr. Nicole: And if you’d like some of it, I’d be more than willing to share a little bit of that.

Gabe: You want to start a GoFundMe right now?

Dr. Nicole: Right now? [Laughter]

Gabe: [Laughter] But you understand my point, right?

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: Just because we’re both podcasters, both work in mental health, both advocates, both understand

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: Bipolar disorder. You and I are very unique and very. And anybody listening to me would be

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: Like, oh my God, Gabe thinks he’s a doctor. We joke about that all the time,

Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes.

Gabe: But yet, you know as well as I do, there are people listening right now that are just like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I met such and such in the support group, in the hospital, in the inpatient unit at the at the clubhouse, and they have bipolar and they’ve got a wife, a job, a house, a car, whatever it is. So I’m going to do exactly what they do and they believe it makes sense. And I just want to challenge that a little bit. I’m not trying to ruin anybody’s day. I just

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: We need the recovery that works for us, not the recovery that worked for Jane, Joe, Bob or or. I can’t think of a fourth name. Sharon. I’m going to go with Sharon. How’d I do? That’s good. I try to I try to give multiple names there. Dr. Nicole.

Dr. Nicole: [Laughter] Oh, gosh.

Gabe: I just broke Dr. Nicole.

Dr. Nicole: You did. You broke me. You are right, though. I mean, you’re absolutely right. We do have to take that advice and take that modeling with a grain of salt. And, and it takes a lot of skill to figure out what aspects of your relationship with someone that you do want to model, what aspects are appropriate for you to model? It takes some skill. It takes some time. I mean that that’s not an easy thing to figure out. Sometimes when you first meet somebody, you think like, oh, this is great. This person is amazing. As you get to know them a little bit better, you might realize, oh, we’re very different, even though we have all these similarities. And maybe that just wouldn’t work for me. So it’s perfectly okay to take bits and pieces from people’s stories that you hear that you think, oh, that would work for me. Take it. If it’s something that could realistically work for you and help you in your recovery, absolutely take it.

Gabe: The thing that I’m thinking about, Dr. Nicole, is how you’re a foodie and you’ve given me great advice on food and restaurants, and I’ve taken it. And I know that Dr. Nicole knows a lot about food, so I, I do tend to elevate your advice above others, but you’re not the only person that I take advice from when it comes to food and restaurants. I go to other restaurants, I go to other food, and I think anybody listening would think that it would be odd if I only took restaurant advice from one friend only. I want to point that out, because I think that sometimes people with bipolar disorder, they’re only getting their bipolar advice from one person, and in fact, they get really angry when people don’t agree with that one person. And again, to tie it back to this analogy, could you imagine if Dr. Nicole said, hey Gabe, you should go eat at XYZ restaurant? And then my mom said, you know, I went there and I didn’t like that restaurant. And then I lash out at her and accuse her of attacking Dr. Nicole. That’s not what happened. My mom just gave me her review of that restaurant. Dr. Nicole gave me her review, and the intelligent thing for me to do would be to go to the restaurant and make up my own mind. We need to apply this line of thinking to bipolar disorder. Otherwise you’ve become codependent and codependency does not work out well. Hard stop.

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Dr. Nicole: And we’re back discussing the complex relationships you hold with other people who have bipolar disorder.

Gabe: Codependency is really dangerous when managing bipolar disorder, especially if you start feeding each other and especially if you have an us against them mentality, because then suddenly you’re not partnering with other people. You’re not coaching a support team anymore. You’re now building walls. You’re not enforcing good boundaries. And you’ve probably now have an adversarial relationship with your Dr. Nicole and Dr. Nicole, I know that you’ve had patients who see you as the enemy, and it’s very difficult to treat those patients, and ultimately that difficulty affects them more than it affects you.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. It’s tough as a as a doctor. And it is. It seems to be even more difficult when the relationship is someone who’s very close to the person. It’s a lot more difficult when it’s someone in the home or like an actual relationship, an intimate relationship. It’s a lot more complex than it is with like random person with bipolar disorder who I met in a support group who I hang out with and go to the park every week. Like it’s just it’s even harder. And as much as I know it’s harder for me, it’s harder for the person who is sitting in front of me trying to figure out how to navigate this relationship, too.

Gabe: Well, because if they think you’re the enemy, they don’t want to listen to you. So when you’re giving them advice or when you’re giving them hints or tips or even options,

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Gabe: Who wants to take options from somebody that they see as an adversary?

Dr. Nicole: Well,

Gabe: They don’t want to do anything you suggest.

Dr. Nicole: But sometimes they don’t see me as the enemy. Sometimes they kind of agree with me and they see where I’m coming from. But their struggle is on the other side of how in the world do I navigate the relationship with this other bipolar person who like, how do I navigate that? Like for some people, that’s where the big stressor comes in. Because even if they come to me and they say, hey, my so and so, you know, fill in the blank. My mom, my brother, my sister, my spouse, my whoever, you know, has bipolar disorder and da da da da da. And as I explained and they’re like, oh okay. That yeah. Okay. That makes sense. You know? Okay. Dr. Nicole, I think you know what you’re talking about. And then we’re good. But then they still have to go back. And it’s always a source of stress. Like every visit they’re coming in and they’re like, well, so-and-so doesn’t think or well, I don’t know. They’re concerned. It’s really hard because how do you tell somebody, well, don’t listen to the person you sleep with every night who also [Laughter]

Gabe: So you flip the script on it. You flip the script where the person one person with bipolar disorder is like, yes, I want to build the team. I want to build the team that I coach. I want to have multiple

Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes.

Gabe: People. I don’t want to be siloed. I don’t want to be in the echo chamber. But their buddy who they value, who is a member of their support team, is like, I wouldn’t do that if I were you. Let me send you a podcast. I wouldn’t do that if I were you. I read on the dark web that you will grow horns if you take that medicine. And I’ve seen all kinds of stuff. You don’t. You don’t need that medicine. You need this, this diet, this, this diet cures you. Did you know that if you nature bathe, you don’t? I hear that from people with bipolar disorder a lot. Or they’re like, look, I feel like I’m getting good care. But the community that’s given me a lot of support is telling me that I’m getting bad care, and I don’t want to leave that community. Is this what you’ve done? Have you? Has the podcast flipped?

Dr. Nicole: I mean, I guess it has flipped, but that is a problem too. I mean, that’s a part of this too. Sometimes it’s not. You know, the way we’ve been talking about it, sometimes the person is really wanting to get better and they really are in it and they’re doing the best they can. But sometimes the people in their lives can kind of drag them down, so to speak. And it. It can be really complicated for them.

Gabe: I really think it’s worth pointing out at this particular juncture that some of this just sucks. The very fact that we have to factor in that we have bipolar disorder into our relationships is kind of a it kind of stinks. Like, maybe I just want a friend, right? Maybe I just want I’m not looking for support. I’m just I’m just looking for somebody who also likes Marvel movies or toy trains or baseball. I’m not trying to look for bipolar support.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I mean boundaries are going to be great. And they’re necessary, especially with those people who are not people that you can just decide they’re either in or out. You know, our families are our families. We can’t pick your family. You, you, you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit. Well, maybe sometimes you do. But anyway, you know, you get who you get. And sometimes it’s not as easy as just saying, well, I’m just not going to communicate with that person. So boundaries become very, very important because you have to figure out how to maintain relationships with some people on terms that are going to keep you in relationship with each other. Having good boundaries can do that. And that’s something, again, you know, these are the things that therapists are fantastic with helping you with, especially if boundaries is something you struggle with.

Gabe: Did you just recommend that people go to therapy instead of listen to our podcast, Dr. Nicole?

Dr. Nicole: I absolutely did, because they’re not going to learn how to set boundaries from me or you in 40 minutes. So yeah, I did, I did, I did, I did, and you’re welcome and you’re welcome

Gabe: And you’re welcome?

Dr. Nicole: And you’re welcome.

Gabe: I’m not disagreeing with you. Boundaries are super complicated, and it’s really easy to have the idea in your head. Right? I just I’m reminded of a of a of an old story that I once heard where a person said, well, if that was my son, I’d throw him out. And the person replied, if it was your son, I’d throw him out too. It’s really easy to talk about what you would do if it was somebody else’s. But when it’s your child, your friend, your spouse, your

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Cousin, your family member, when you’ve got when you’ve got five, ten, 15, 20 years, a lifetime worth of history and memories with someone, and then you’re listening to a podcast and it’s like, look, if they’re walking over your boundaries, just cut them off. Oh, well then I that’s great advice. But it is good advice. It’s just difficult to implement and you probably want to give like some warnings first. I do want some folks to have some takeaways.

Dr. Nicole: [Laughter] Yes. Yes.

Gabe: I don’t want people to think the only, I what are what are some what are some ways to set boundaries, Dr. Nicole?

Dr. Nicole: [Laughter] Well, we definitely don’t want to just jump to I’m cutting you off. I’m done with you. I’m never speaking to you again. Oftentimes, there are lots of steps before we get to that point. And not to say that there aren’t sometimes that that’s the end result that we get to is that I obviously cannot be in healthy relationship with this person. And I do have to make a decision about cutting them off or not. But I would say, you know, one of the first things is to figure out what is even the problem, what is what is the boundary that this person is crossing? What do you need them for? What do you not need them for? Maybe you just want them to be your mom. They could have illness or not have illness and maybe you just don’t want that to be a huge part of your relationship with them. Maybe you want their bipolar disorder to be their bipolar disorder and let you manage your bipolar disorder the way that you want to manage your bipolar disorder. Maybe that’s your boundary. So the first thing is even figuring out what is even the need. Like what’s the problem? What’s going on? What’s happening? Why in the world am I even feeling this way? So once you figure that out and you figure out what the boundary is that you want to set, you also have to figure out what is the consequence of that boundary. Like what is the consequence of that person violating that boundary. You put your line in the sand and you say, hey, don’t cross that line and what is going to be the consequence? And don’t be so rigid that you’re going to set yourself up for failure because setting boundaries is hard. But what’s even harder than setting a boundary is actually holding that person to the consequences that you outlined.

Gabe: Is enforcing the boundary, right?

Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes, if you don’t do it well, you’re going to end up like that mom and kid. And the mom is like, if you keep it up, I’m going to spank your butt. I’m, I’m gonna I’m gonna spank your butt if you do that one more time. If you do that again, I’m gonna punish you. If you do that again, you’re going to be in big trouble. Well, eventually what happens? That kid just completely ignores everything that that parent said because they’re like, well, they’ve been saying that and nothing’s happened. So if you’re going to set the boundary, then you have to be prepared to enforce it, because if not, then those people are going to continue to walk across every line that you draw because they, they know that history has shown them that you’re not going to you’re not going to back it up. So you want to make sure that if you’re setting these boundaries, that you are able to enforce whatever consequence it is that you laid out, because otherwise it’s kind of pointless.

Gabe: In some ways we have to put on our child management hat. One of the things that I learned working with kids is that consistency really matters, right? So if you say it, you have to do it. So if you set a consequence, you actually have to follow through with the consequence like you just said. But part of that is on our side, right. Don’t make the consequence something that you’re unwilling to enforce. We’ve all heard of the parent who’s lost their mind and said, if you don’t calm down, we’re leaving Disney World and the vacation is canceled. I think one of the things that we have to remember as the person setting that boundary is we have to be reasonable, right? So, hey, here’s the specific thing that I want you to stop right here is why I want you to stop it and use I statements, right?

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: It hurts me when you do the following things or when you tell me not to go to therapy, etc., right? So, so far, so good. And you know, if you don’t, I’m going to have to step back a little bit. I’m going to have to see you less. Right? You’re not going straight for the cut off. You’re going like, hey, you know, maybe I won’t come to this event if you feel that that’s all we’re going to talk about or, you know, I was I was looking at the road trip and I am looking forward to riding with you in the car. But if you’re going to ride me about this, I’m going to go in a different car. I’m going to I’m going to find I’m going to drive myself or whatever the case may be. And finally, I want to say this because I see this a lot with difficult conversations. And setting boundaries is a difficult conversation. This is not an email. This is not a text. You’re

Dr. Nicole: No.

Gabe: Allowing so many misunderstandings to occur when you fire off that email and you’re like, well, I made it very clear and I put it in writing, right? But they probably didn’t read the correct tone. They

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: Didn’t have the ability to ask questions. They probably feel very attacked and they don’t have an opportunity to discuss what is going wrong or to get any to get any of their questions answered.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Gabe: You know, well, is this okay or is that not okay or even explain? You know, I got to tell you, there’s been times I’ve set boundaries where the person is like, look, Gabe, I’m just so worried about you, and I’d rather fight with you and feel like I’m helping than say nothing and feel like I missed an opportunity. And I’m like, well, that’s all kinds of twisted that you think that fighting is going to help. But I do kind of get it, I really do. The idea of action is important to you. It’s toxic for me. And this is why we need to stop it. But now I’m starting to understand where they’re coming from, and

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: It’s not from the malicious place that I thought. But I just wanted to say that because so many people are like, well, I texted if she ever did that again, I was cutting her off

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: And then she walked right through my boundary

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: Like, I don’t know, I don’t think you were setting boundaries at all. I think you told her off.

Dr. Nicole: [Laughter] Yeah. Yes.

Gabe: And I think that’s important to address.

Dr. Nicole: No. Tone is important. And like I said, there’s usually a lot of steps between something else we can do and I’m cutting you off for good. Like, there’s, you know, it’s just it is what it is. And, you know, something we haven’t even talked about is sometimes your relationship with that other person who has bipolar disorder, whether it’s friend, intimate family, sometimes you find yourselves in different places of recovery because maybe one of you, maybe you were both in recovery at some point, maybe one of you has taken a few steps back and maybe that person is actively ill and in and out of the hospital. And so those things are going to change the dynamic of those relationships. And I think it’s important in that initial phase of boundary setting when you’re thinking about like, what is even the problem? What is the issue? Think about, are we in the same place like, you know, where are we? Have one of us left the path that we were on. Maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m the one that left the path. Maybe they left the path. There’s a lot of thought that goes into it. And so that’s a lot of the reason why we will often say, you should probably work with a therapist on this, because it’s not just, oh, I’m just going to set this boundary and then I’m just going to do it. It’s going to be great because there’s so many pieces that go into setting boundaries. It’s not as easy and cut and dry, you know, as just go ahead and do it and then you’ll be great.

Gabe: I want to build off of your therapy example. Dr. Nicole because I want to be cool like you,

Dr. Nicole: Oh, I mean, you can try, you can try.

Gabe: I can try. I can try.

Dr. Nicole: You can try.

Gabe: I will do my best to try.

Dr. Nicole: You can try.

Gabe: But, one of the things when you said therapy, I was thinking, only the listener can go to therapy, right? To learn how to set boundaries. But depending on the relationship, you know, couples counseling is a real thing. If

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: The person you’re setting boundaries with is your spouse or your significant other,

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Gabe: That that could be a good opportunity for couples counseling. If the person you’re having trouble setting those boundaries with is mom and dad parents and children, right. And, you know, this is 2024. I hear about a lot of business partners, best friends, roommates, who go to mediation, couples counseling, peer support, mediation, things like that, because they have strong feelings towards one another. They have a relationship that puts them in close proximity and they need some help. So,

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: You know, don’t just think traditional. I’m lying on a couch talking about how to do boundaries.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: You might go to therapy with the person you’re setting the boundaries with, or you might need to recommend that they go to therapy to understand why you’re setting the boundaries if more conflicts arises. Let’s just think outside the box on this one.

Dr. Nicole: No. Absolutely. And I am seeing more adult children go to therapy with their parents than I’ve ever seen. And that was something that I just don’t think we saw a lot of. And I actually I mean, I think it’s very valuable just because I’m grown and just because I’m an adult and out here in the world doesn’t mean I don’t still have or potentially have mommy and daddy issues from when I was growing up that I need to deal with, right? Because I still want relationships with those people now that I’m an adult. It doesn’t just mean like, oh, everything’s soft. All the issues we had in adolescence and childhood just out the window. We’re mutually respectful adults. That’s not how that works. I mean, that’s just not how that works. I don’t know, maybe y’all have, like, hallmark family gatherings, but it might be more like Celebrity Deathmatch at mine, I don’t know. And I mean, they their therapy could be helpful.

Gabe: [Laughter] I got, I got like BattleBots

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Gabe: With mom and dad in my head right now.

Dr. Nicole: Yes, like therapy could be helpful. Even as an adult, you know, with loved ones and people who have been in your life for years and years. Just because you’re adults doesn’t mean like the window is closed for you to try to fix stuff. It’s never too late.

Gabe: It’s very difficult when you think about the people in your life who also live with bipolar disorder and where to place them, and we’re always going to have this, like eternal struggle of how much should we listen to them? And I got to tell you, as somebody who lives with bipolar disorder. I struggle with this. I really want to make sure to drive the point home that just because the person has bipolar disorder doesn’t mean that you have reached an understanding and that critical thinking skills are very important. Right. If I tried to put all the same races in a box, or all the same gender in a box, or all the same people with sexuality in a box and say that they all were exactly the same? Based on this one attribute, people would quickly point out the flaw in that thinking, and they’d be right to do so. And I want to put the same guardrails up for people with bipolar disorder. And since we’re talking about this on an individual level, I do think that sometimes in our desperation to connect with people, we see ourselves in people with bipolar disorder, and we realize that we’ve met an ally, and that’s fantastic. But you still want to keep your wits about you. You still want to keep your critical thinking skills on and realize that no one person can be everything to you. And that’s why it’s super important to understand that if you know somebody with bipolar disorder, that is fantastic and it creates a lot of opportunity for good, but it also creates a lot of opportunities for some potential downfalls. And if you’re not aware of them, you can become codependent very, very quickly. You can get yourself into trouble very, very quickly. You can become the sole source of support for a person very, very quickly. Or you can become completely dependent on somebody very, very quickly.

Dr. Nicole: Well, Gabe, I guess I just couldn’t have said that better myself.

Gabe: Thank you so much, Dr. Nicole. All right. That is our show. Thank you all for listening. We need a whole bunch of favors. Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please follow or subscribe to the show. It is absolutely free and you don’t want to miss a thing. Share this show on social media. Share your favorite episodes out in the world. Send text messages. Send emails. Bring us up in support groups. Sharing the show with the people you know is how we’re going to grow. My name is Gabe Howard and I’m an award-winning public speaker and I could be available for your next event. I also wrote a book. It’s called “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations.” You can buy it over on Amazon. However, if you want to get a signed copy with some free swag, just hit me up at my website gabehoward.com.

Dr. Nicole: And I’m Dr. Nicole Washington. You can find me on all social media platforms @DrNicolePsych or on my website, DrNicolePsych.com.

Gabe: And we will see everybody next time on Inside Bipolar.

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