Podcast: Shame as a Feminist Issue: Reclaiming Your Story

Melissa Petro is a journalist whose writing has been featured in The Washington Post, Allure, Cosmopolitan, Rolling Stone, Good Housekeeping, The Guardian, InStyle, and many other national publications. She was a finalist for the PEN/Fusion Emerging Writers Prize and she holds a bachelor’s degree in women’s studies from Antioch and an MFA in creative nonfiction from The New School. She lives with her husband and two young children in upstate New York.

Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, “Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations,” available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author.

Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can’t imagine life without.

To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com.

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Mental Health: A Psych Central Podcast where experts share experiences and the latest thinking on mental health and psychology. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the show. I’m your host, Gabe Howard. Calling into the show today, we have Melissa Petro. Melissa is a journalist whose writing has been featured in national publications like The Washington Post, Cosmopolitan, and Rolling Stone. She’s the author of the book “Shame on You: How to Be a Woman in the Age of Mortification,” which is out now. Melissa, welcome to the podcast.

Melissa Petro: Oh, thanks so much for having me.

Gabe Howard: This is going to be fantastic, because shame is one of those concepts that every single person in the world has heard of and believes that they completely understand. Yet it really seems like as a society, we don’t have that strong of a grasp on it. So I was hoping that we could just start out by defining shame for our listeners.

Melissa Petro: Oh, tough questions right off the bat.

Gabe Howard: I mean, we got to jump in.

Melissa Petro: You know, it’s so pernicious and endemic in our everyday experience. And yet it is this really hard to define experience. You know, everyone. Obviously they ask you if you have a book out or what’s your book about. And I wish I had an easier answer than shame. I wish I could just say, oh, I’ve written about kittens. Because the second I say I’ve written a book about shame, it takes the air out of the room. You know, it’s this experience that we all live with. We live in a culture of shame. That was Brené Brown 20 years ago. That’s how she described our culture. And it’s more true than ever, right? We’re constantly being told, overtly or covertly, that we are inadequate, that something’s wrong and it’s our fault, and that fault is inherent. And that is the definition, really, of shame. Shame is an inherent feeling of inadequacy and worthlessness. So not only is something wrong, but you’re wrong. You’ve done it. It’s your fault. You can’t make it better. It’s not just what happened, it’s you. There is some fundamental flaw in you. And that’s why it’s not right.

Gabe Howard: And this differs from embarrassment, if I understand correctly, because embarrassment is a one single issue and its sort of time limited. Like you were embarrassed about the way that you behaved at a party, or you were embarrassed about tripping in front of the school board when you walked up to speak or something like that, whereas shame is more pervasive into everyday areas.

Melissa Petro: Absolutely. So embarrassment is something happened and you can be very embarrassed by it. But, you know, it was that event and, you know, it happens to other people too. You know, this is something that happens to people. It’s a shared experience. And eventually oftentimes when something is embarrassing, we can laugh about it, whereas something that we feel shame over that we’re really ashamed of. It’s not at all funny to us. It’s not a shared experience, though. It is. But we fear that it’s it’s really it’s indicative of something very, very wrong with us. And that’s why it happened. It wasn’t just an event that happens to everyone. It was we revealed this like inherent badness within ourselves. That event that happened is just it’s just a it just kind of reveals something that we don’t actually want anyone to ever see, because we don’t want to share it.

Gabe Howard: Understood. Understood. Now I’m about to wade into some deep waters here as a middle-aged man. Your book specifically talks about shame as a feminist issue, so I want to be the first to admit. Obviously, this is not my experience. I don’t live as a woman, so I don’t see it. But I do read and talk to a lot of people, and I, I can understand it as much as someone in my position can understand it. So for those who are listening. Why is shame a feminist issue?

Melissa Petro: Well, that’s a great question. And let me start by saying, you’ve got multiple identities, just like we all do. And if you struggle with mental health issues, you’ve experienced shame in a profound and unique way. The other ethnic and marginalized groups or minoritized groups, underserved and underrepresented groups, they’re oftentimes they experience shame more frequently and more intensely than other people, because that’s how shame functions in our society. So that’s really what the book is about. And women, of course, experience shame more frequently and more intensely. And that’s not by accident, that’s by design. So shame and shaming is really bound up with social inequality. The people who need to stay in line and behave the way society wants them to behave are frequently shamed and shunned into behaving in that way. So if you go against the grain in any way you’re likely to encounter shame. And women, of course, are constantly being told who we have to be in order to get along in the world, because the world really depends on us. It depends on our unpaid labor. It depends on our compliance. I’m talking about a heteronormative, sexist, patriarchal kind of world.

Gabe Howard: I work in, in, you know, podcasting and the and the internet world, and it’s taken over by, by a lot of young people. They’re younger than I am and they’re a really diverse crowd, and I’m always fascinated with the behavior that I get away with as a as a middle-aged man and the behavior that women can’t get away with. And the specific thing that keeps locking into my mind is I’m a I’m a loud guy. I’m six foot three. I’m loud. I talk for a living. I’m a speaker when I’m on stage. Me having a giant, booming voice is a good thing. When I’m in a room and I get amped up and I raise my voice. It’s not so great of a thing, but everybody gives me a pass. But I’ve noticed that if any of the young people, specifically the young women, raise their voice, they get immediately told to calm down in a way that I don’t. Now I’m just pulling examples from my own life, and I recognize that they’re not great. So please feel free to expand on them. But I’ve noticed that it just it happens to to women a lot more than it happens to men.

Melissa Petro: What’s up with that? Right?

Gabe Howard: Yeah. What’s up with that?

Melissa Petro: So, there’s all of these unwanted and undesirable identities that women are just kind of tiptoeing around, you know? But the problem and you’d asked, why is this a feminist issue? Because you really you really are damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If you’re overtly sexual, you’re a slut. If you’re if you’re too prudish, you’re a prude. You know, if you’re if you’re bossy or aggressive at work, you’re that you’re bossy and aggressive and, you know, a man’s never going to be called certain things that a woman would be called if they’re domineering and really assertive. But if you’re not assertive, you’re, you know, you’re not feminist. You’re not you know, you got, you know, forgive you if you’re, you know, a homemaker or you know, if you’re like, there’s all of these labels that we’re trying to avoid and really kind of trying, oftentimes unsuccessfully, because it’s impossible to walk this very thin line of what we are allowed to be. And yeah, you’re correct. Men just are allowed to be all the things. And it’s and it’s and it’s much more forgiving. The only thing that men really can’t be research really finds is, is like a woman. If you’re and if and any man that’s any man that’s not a heterosexual, manly man is going to be put in their place the way a woman would.

Gabe Howard: Melissa, you’ve talked about shame, resilience. Now, I’ve never heard about this, but it sounds like an incredible strategy. I’m just curious as to how does somebody come up with a shame resilience? How do we cultivate that?

Melissa Petro: So I really want to credit Brené Brown for that term, first off, because it’s her wheelhouse, she came up with this idea that in order to combat shame and I’m using scare quotes or fight shame we have to really approach it differently instead of rejecting the shame that we experience daily in our lives, we have to start to reacquaint ourselves with that feeling with our own feelings and our body. So shame. Resilience starts with feeling the feeling. It moves to connecting where that feeling is coming from, finding the cultural institutional triggers that that we are all experiencing all the time. So really developing what’s called cultural awareness. And that’s where I really depart from a Brené Brown’s position, where, where I really do believe that we need to politicize our, our intake of the culture. How do I say that differently? That it really is that that shame really is a political issue. So there’s no there’s no stepping around that. These messages are not unintended. These messages do have an intention. And once we begin to identify where they’re coming from and what their intention is, then, then we can start to rise above them. And we do that by telling our own stories and connecting with other people who are telling their truths. So telling the truth, hearing other people’s truth in an empathetic way, feeling these meaningful connections. And the more and more we do that, the more resilient to shame we become. So we think of resilience sometimes in a different way, where it’s like we’re just you think of like a horse in a field and it’s raining on the horse, and the horse is just steeling himself against the rain. Enduring, we think of resilience as endurance. But this is shame.

Melissa Petro: Resilience is something else. It really isn’t just kind of steeling yourself against the feeling. It’s about feeling that feeling and then looking beyond that feeling to where it comes from and and and rising above it in a way that actually is for the better. It makes us more human to feel shame. I don’t reject or regret or You know, it’s easy to say on some days, some days it’s easier to say than others, but I don’t I don’t regret any experience, any of the shame that I’ve experienced. I’ve turned it into a tool to connect more deeply with other people. And for that, I’m grateful. I’m not grateful for everything I’ve done that’s been done to me. I don’t want to. Don’t be. Don’t be mistaken. But I am grateful for how it’s made me a better friend, a better mom. A better wife. I am all these things. It’s ironic. Right? Because you know, shame’s all about. Oh, I got to be a better person. And so we, you know, it’s this fear of not being good enough. And so we try to be. Quote unquote, better. But the reality is, when we practice shame, resilience, we do become, in a sense more the we’re more aligned with our ideals. And to me, that is that’s my goal. So that there’s not so much space between who I want to be and who I am, because that that’s my goal to be who I want to be. And and it’s not skinnier or, you know, or, you know, it’s it doesn’t matter what my house looks like. It’s not you know, all the things you said that are being sold to us, it’s it’s an it’s a it’s a person who belongs in this world amongst people who belong in this world.

Sponsor Break

Gabe Howard: And we’re back with the author of the book “Shame on You: How to Be a Woman in the Age of Mortification,” Melissa Petro. When you were giving your horse analogy, it reminded me a little bit of Vivian Greene’s famous quote, life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass. It’s about learning how to dance in the rain. And

Melissa Petro: Absolutely.

Gabe Howard: I love that quote. And I, you know, sometimes cliches get me, and I’m just like, that’s a really good point. Because if you’re waiting for the storm to pass, you’re you’re going to watch your life pass by. But if you truly learn to enjoy to dance in the rain.

Melissa Petro: Absolutely. There’s always a storm. So how do we stand up to them? Empathy expert Brené Brown has done all the work and so have so many others about how do we really respond? The first step is really you got to feel it. So there’s no more like, oh, that didn’t hurt. And you’re wrong. And I’m who I am, and I just, you know, feel shameless about that because we don’t. The messages are so unending and confusing and impossible that you can’t not have a feeling in reaction to that. So the first step is really feeling our feelings, identifying our triggers, because we all have these unique, you know, unique ways that we’re susceptible. We all have these ways that we’re uniquely susceptible to shame. And that’s called a trigger. You know, some people may not be put off by trying on bathing suits because they’re entirely comfortable in their body, but chances are you are, because most women find that experience very difficult because of all the messages that have been imposed upon them about how their bodies should or shouldn’t look. So it starts with really knowing, okay, this is a trigger, I’m going to feel some feelings or that just triggered me. I’m feeling some feelings. So really becoming comfortable in our bodies enough to feel that feeling when it arises, to be able to connect it to our culture, to to know what I just said. This isn’t just me. Individualize that. It’s not just me in that dressing room feeling mortified when I look at myself.

Melissa Petro: You know, many, many women and others men and, you know, have that experience when we look at our bodies because we’ve been taught to hate them. You know, so really having the, the, the cultural awareness to know that we live in this culture that’s trying to sell me something, trying to make me feel bad, trying to not let me be who I am. And that’s why I’m feeling this way. Not because there’s something wrong with my body, not because I shouldn’t or should. But I can be who I am. And that’s all right. So now we’re getting to that place of, like, really like owning ourselves and our story and experiencing what experts call shame, resilience. Okay. I’m going to feel some. I’m going to feel. It actually feels a little empowering now because, hey, I actually like that about my body. So finding that feeling. But you can only find that feeling if you’ve been in this other place where you’re like, oh, I’m feeling inadequate. So you feel that first you kind of connect it to where it comes from, and then you you know, you find your truth. That’s how we resist. And then we start to do what you and I are doing right now, which is talking about it out loud, hearing other people’s experiences. And then collectively, we’re like, you know what that story that we’ve been told our entire lives is not the story I want to live by. And we’re going to create a new story, and I’m going to be I’m going to we’re going to create a new story, and I am going to live my truth in that story, and I’m going to be an authentic person. And that’s okay. Other people might not like it, but I do.

Gabe Howard: Two things immediately came to mind while you were sharing that with me. And the first one was. This seems so simple, right? I was like, yes. Feel your feelings. Like, I completely agree with that. But then I started thinking about what you said earlier about the paradox of shame. And I thought oh, doesn’t that make women emotional? I mean, isn’t this why you’re unfit for leadership roles and all this other criticism that we constantly hear about? Why women can’t compete? Women can’t be leaders, women can’t be bosses, women can’t be engineers. And on and on and on and on because you’re so emotional. And is that the issue? Because I can imagine if you internalize that, like, okay, I need to feel my feelings. That makes a lot of sense. Oh, well, now I’m an emotional basket case and I can’t be in charge

Melissa Petro: Hmm.

Gabe Howard: Of a company, that’s got to be terrible.

Melissa Petro: Well. And also yes. So, so yes we’ve shamed people for feeling feelings. And also just think of the word triggered that and how the backlash against. Oh you’re triggered, you snowflake.

Gabe Howard: Right.

Melissa Petro: You know really discouraged from acknowledging that emotional experience. That’s part of this culture. We’re supposed to be cool and dismissive and nothing’s supposed to bother us ever. So yeah, that’s really tricky. It’s really tricky. And it’s also just psychologically difficult to admit that you feel shame. Shame is like a it triggers us in such a primitive way, because when we feel shame, it’s a fear of disconnection. We are doing something that could potentially disconnect us from our community. When we’re babies, obviously we rely on our parents, but even as adults, we rely on others. And that feeling of belonging. So we don’t want to feel as if we potentially do not belong or that we’ll be rejected. It’s that really, really core fear of rejection. And to admit that fear. Well, fear is frightening. So we go in every direction but the direction of our body, turning inward and experiencing an intensely uncomfortable emotion.

Gabe Howard: I feel like the media drives a lot of this. So I’m asking you both as a woman and a journalist. How much of the way that we feel about feminism, the way that we feel about women, the way that we feel about members of our society? How much of this shame is generated by the way that the media handles these issues?

Melissa Petro: Such a tricky question because I’m the media too, right?

Gabe Howard: Right, right. Yeah. I thought you’d be a great person to ask.

Melissa Petro: It’s it’s tricky because the media relies on soundbites. We rely on these reductive narratives to get the story across. You only have so many words or so many seconds to tell a story, and that story is always going to be incomplete. So when we talk about, you know, what’s the right way to be a woman or a human, you know, here’s a portrait, here’s a portrait, here’s a snip, here’s a snip. You can’t be all of those things all of the time. You might not even want to be them, ever. But this is the messages that we’re getting that life looks this way. Well, it’s only a snapshot of what a life might look like or part of the story. And yes, oftentimes the media is, you know, ignorant or even willfully ignorant and telling a story, like I said, in order to really teach its audience a message. Right. To, to convey a message about how you should behave. And sometimes that’s unconscious and sometimes it’s very intentional. So and sometimes these stories are just reductive because that’s the nature of, of storytelling. So it’s really about I think it’s about broadening your media diet curating your timeline so that you’re really getting the little messages that make you feel inspired and connected to yourself and each other. And, you know, seeking out those influences that support you in being who you are versus messages that just make you feel like crap about yourself. You know, we can kind of reduce those in our diet and replace them with something more wholesome and supportive.

Gabe Howard: Melissa, thank you so much for everything. And I know we’re nearing the end of the show, but I have a really big question that I wanted to save for the end. And we know what the media needs to do. We know what society needs to do, and we know what large groups of people need to do. But what can the individual do? Because after all, society is made up of the individual. So what? We’d like the media to present a more balanced viewpoint and to stop being willfully ignorant. As you said, that’s like a really, really big concept. And I imagine the average listener is like, oh, great, well, I hope the media gets on that. But for our listeners who are listening right now, what can she do to make her life better? Because obviously a single person can’t conquer misogyny. A single person can’t conquer society’s misunderstanding about life for women. But what can she do?

Melissa Petro: So I really want to be clear, every time we go on Facebook or Instagram, we are media makers, right? We are curating or creating messages and messages that we internalized and that we continue to reinforce and that we reinforce for others. So really being mindful of the messages that we are absorbing and reinforcing for others, whether that be something we read in Cosmo or whether that be something we’ve posted ourselves on Instagram in a comment or whatnot, you know, what are these messages? Where do they come from? Are they kind? Are they empathetic? What’s the alternative to this message? What’s the other side of this story? What’s its intention? Is it a kind intention? I think we really begin to change the world when we begin to acknowledge our own vulnerabilities and each other’s and forgive each other for being imperfect and vulnerable. Vulnerability is not a fault. It’s a strength. So that’s so contrary to everything we’re constantly being taught. So really, really standing firm in a belief that it’s okay to be wrong. It’s okay to not know or to make mistakes. And and it’s okay for others to do the same. So how do we begin to to treat each other more empathetically? This is the question we should ask and answer for ourselves each day. And then we’ll begin to behave differently. And once our behavior begins to shift, then our culture begins to shift.

Gabe Howard: Melissa, thank you so much. I know you write a lot about this in your book, which is out now, “Shame on You: How to Be a Woman in the Age of Mortification,” which I imagine is available wherever books are sold. I know that people want to follow you on Instagram, they can do so @Melissa.Petro. And if they want to follow you online or learn more about you, learn where to get the book and all of that fun stuff, they can go to Melissa-Petro.com when folks head over to your Instagram, what can they expect to find? I understand you’re a real authentic person over there.

Melissa Petro: I, you know, I really try to be, though it’s interesting because you can fall into the trap of performing authenticity. So I have to kind of stay aware of that impulse. But yeah, that’s where I do post. That’s where I just kind of keep my family photos. And then I also, now that I have my book out, shame on you. I’m, you know, talking about shame, resilience. I’m repeating some of the messages in the book. And really I’m really promoting the idea of living a more vulnerable and empathetic life. So that’s that content is there as well.

Gabe Howard: Thank you so much, Melissa.

Melissa Petro: Thank you. This has been great.

Gabe Howard: Melissa, you are very welcome and I want to give a great big thank you to all of our listeners. My name is Gabe Howard, and I’m an award-winning public speaker who could be available for your next event. I also wrote the book “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations,” which you can get on Amazon. However, you can grab a signed copy with free show swag or learn more about me just by heading over to gabehoward.com. Wherever you downloaded this episode, please follow or subscribe to the show. It is absolutely free! And hey, can you do me a favor? Recommend the show, share your favorite episodes on social media, send somebody a text message. Share it in a support group. Because sharing the show with people you know is how we’re going to grow. I will see everybody next time on Inside Mental Health.

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