As children, we are told that being selfish is a bad thing. We’re told to share our toys with our siblings, for example. And we’re told that putting others before yourself is the way to be. But is selfishness always wrong? Can it be that, sometimes, being selfish is a healthy thing, even in relationships? This week’s guest believes this to be so. Listen in to learn why.
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About Our Guest
Dr. Laura Dabney has been in practice in Virginia Beach for almost twenty years and has treated patients in more than a dozen cities across Virginia. Her psychiatric expertise has been featured on radio and in print media, and she consults for a number of large institutions, including the Virginia Veterans Administration Medical Center. She received her MD from Eastern Virginia Medical School and has been Board Certified in Psychiatry. Laura Dabney, MD has made a career of taking on psychiatry’s toughest challenges from treating complex, combined medical and psychological conditions, to ensure the absolute privacy of powerful, high-profile patients. Dr. Dabney has, for decades, helped her patients change their lives for the better. And they recognize her for it.
SELFISHNESS SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.
Narrator 1: Welcome to the Psych Central show, where each episode presents an in-depth look at issues from the field of psychology and mental health – with host Gabe Howard and co-host Vincent M. Wales.
Gabe Howard: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Psych Central Show Podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I’m here with my fellow host, Vincent M. Wales. And today, Vincent and I will be talking to Dr. Laura Dabney. Dr. Dabney received her M.D. from Eastern Virginia Medical School and is a board certified psychiatrist. And today, we’re going to be discussing being selfish in relationships. Dr. Dabney, welcome to the show.
Laura Dabney, MD: Thank you. So nice to be here.
Gabe Howard: Well, we are very, very happy to have you. So the first question that I want to ask you is, you know, narcissism is kind of one of those diagnosis dujours, as I believe that we discussed in the preliminaries for this episode. And many people think that being selfish is narcissism. So how is being selfish in a relationship not narcissism?
Laura Dabney, MD: Well, first of all, I just wanna remind people that the DSM has a long list of things you need to have to be a narcissist. But I really use selfish as sort of a tongue in cheek and play on words, because when people come to me with a relationship problem or really any emotional problem, they are typically very invested in talking about somebody else. Their significant other, let’s say. Here is what they are doing wrong, here is what I can’t do with him, her, whatever. And then I say, well, how is it making you feel or how is impacting you? And they just stop. They typically are so afraid or grown up to not know what they think or feel or they’re very, very invested in trying to get rid of certain feelings or thoughts. For instance, the top three are anger, sadness, and neediness. They really think they’re not allowed to have those emotions. They spend a tremendous amount of time and energy trying to bury them. And it is that working around those emotions, not ever able to even acknowledging them in their own head, let alone say them, that keeps them from the intimacy that they want. So I kind of sit with them and say, well, what’s keeping you from doing that and how did this happen in your life? And they’ll say, what? I want don’t want to be selfish and just think about myself. Then we have a really actually good time talking about, well, what’s the difference between self aware and selfish? And what’s the difference between taking a break and being lazy? And really get them, or challenge them on all this. Why is being angry wrong? Because they have really a phobia. They just do not want to admit these feelings. They do not want to have them. You can’t have a relationship discussion until you know what you feel and you’ve given it some strong consideration and thought. You have to start with you. As soon as you start conversation with you need to change or you’re doing something wrong or, you know, I need you to stop doing that. People get defensive. But if you start with I’m angry whenever you tell that story about me at every party, I need you to stop. People are much more invested and are going to be much more compelled to change if it hurts you. If you’re just telling them or you’re declaring it’s wrong, they’re not going to change.
Gabe Howard: This is really where, and I’ll be the first to admit I went to couples counseling, and I learned about “I statements,” because like you said when I said you’re mean, nobody responded. When I said, you’re hurting my feelings, or my feelings are hurt, or I get upset when you … It really changed the dynamic a lot.
Laura Dabney, MD: Right. And it’s not selfish.
Vincent M. Wales: One of the things you said earlier was that they feel that they’re not allowed to have certain feelings. Where does that come from? Why do we get that impression?
Laura Dabney, MD: Oh, this is what makes my job so much fun. I love finding that out. It tends to be something along the lines of a parent. I’m not blaming your parents, by the way. People get upset with me, but you have to understand the foundation. I’m just saying where this comes from in order to change it. So typically they grew up in a household where that emotion wasn’t expressed at all or was expressed inappropriately. And those two very broad generalizations are what causes somebody to think that they’re not allowed to have them. To have them is going to cause a tremendous problem, is going to drive everybody away. I guess it’s a more accurate way of saying it.
Vincent M. Wales: Got it. Got it.
Gabe Howard: I do realize that, you know, our parents have great amounts of influence on us. And, you know, our parents love to take credit when things go well. You know, you went to college. You’re a success. You became a doctor. That’s all me. But you have trouble setting boundaries or you are a pushover or you yell when you’re angry or you get angry at nonsense. I don’t know where you pick that up. Is it kind of like that? Our parents like to take credit for our success and sort of move away from our failure, which means it’s our fault.
Laura Dabney, MD: And I do think some parents are really clueless. They’re just, maybe not clueless, they don’t know. It’s unconscious for them and it’s unconscious for my patients. When they come they don’t realize that anger is a normal there’s no such thing as a right or wrong feeling. And I have to teach them to believe that’s true. Their parents may have had no idea that the fact that they had arguments in front of children was somehow detrimental. Or somehow got the child to believe that if you ever show anger, you know, you’re going to get divorced, but the child comes into it with a certain personality in a certain sensitivity and they interpret it that way. So it’s not always just a scenario in the household, it’s how the child interprets it. And that’s why when siblings say we were raised exactly the same. No, no, you weren’t. It’s impossible. So you come in with a certain, they come in with a certain predisposition to this. Or maybe parents did fight in front of each other. But the parent came back and said, hey, listen and talked the kids through it. We are angry now. But part of being in a relationship is where you get over it and it can be OK. And then the child can take that and not turn anger into the problem, but realize it’s what you do with the anger. That is the problem.
Gabe Howard: See, that’s a really profound point that you just made, especially in my life, to self disclose a little bit. You know, my dad has a temper. Not so much anymore. He’s he’s calmed down a lot since retirement. Love you, Dad. But when we were younger, you know, my dad had a shift job. You know, he stayed up all night and he was constantly changing. And he really did have a hair trigger. And my parents would fight. And my dad’s hair trigger would go off in front of everybody. My mom would yell. She’d set her boundary. They’d get in a big fight. And for years, we never saw them make up. Now we knew they made up because everything would be fine later. And it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized that obviously in the moment my dad was willing to yell and that later he would apologize. He would make up. You know, they would come back together in some way. But for whatever reason, my parents didn’t mind arguing in front of the children. But they had a problem apologizing in front of the children. They didn’t even realize they were doing this.
Laura Dabney, MD: Right. Exactly.
Gabe Howard: And I believe her longest time that fighting was what adults did.
Laura Dabney, MD: Oh, my gosh.
Vincent M. Wales: A lot of us have grown up that way. Yeah.
Laura Dabney, MD: Yeah.
Vincent M. Wales: You know, this is kind of off on a different tangent. But what a lot of people don’t realize is when they do that sort of thing, they are giving their children a very, very bad impression of what a relationship is like. And these kids will grow up to repeat that same kind of behavior frequently.
Laura Dabney, MD: Also, you have to know fighting is a part of a relationship and it’s really not making up or not coming back to discuss it with especially a young child. That is the problem.
Vincent M. Wales: Right.
Gabe Howard: I just thought it was a very interesting point that you brought up that, you know, my parents didn’t do this intentionally. And listen, my parents have been married for, you know, almost 40 years at this point. Frankly, now that I’m an adult, I really understand their marriage differently and I realize how they have a very good, very supportive marriage, especially from where they both came from, not to fall down a rabbit hole. But, you know, my father adopted me. My mother had a child when they met. And these are very good things. And they went on to have more children. But it was interesting that the exposure of negativity was just right out there and the positivity or the coming together, the making up was hidden. But to your point, you know, they saw this as moving it back behind the curtain. And then it’s repeated. But it’s not repeated. The entire cycle isn’t seen. Which means you’re getting half of the story.
Laura Dabney, MD: Right. So a lot of my patients will take scenarios like that and say anger is the problem because it’s so dangerous for a child. I mean, it’s life threatening for a child to see any flaw in their parents, because obviously children depend on their parents for their survival. So lots of children will interpret, oh, anger is the problem. It’s not that my parents are handling it. It’s not that they have a flaw in handling it. So they then take that to adulthood. And I can never have any anger. They can’t admit it to themselves. They can’t ever say it. And this is, it’s like a splinter or, you know, it’s not the splinter that’s the problem. It’s the infection or the blisters surrounding the splinter that causes all the problems.
Gabe Howard: We’ll be right back after hearing from our sponsor.
Narrator 2: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com, secure, convenient and affordable online counselling. All counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face-to-face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counselling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral.
Vincent M. Wales: Welcome back, everyone. We’re talking about selfishness in relationships with Dr. Laura Dabney. So let’s get to the point here. How is it helpful to be selfish in a relationship?
Laura Dabney, MD: We sit here and all they really, really want to talk about is everybody else in their lives and all the problems that they’re causing. I have to get them to sit with themselves and be selfish, self-centered, to sit and talk about themselves, to learn what it is. What are those feelings? What is the history? Why they become taboo. And then we have to do the very hard work of once they are able to name this item, the name, the feeling, I mean, then they have to be able to express it. Because those are two separate, very, very difficult tasks. One is to admit that they’re angry. Angry, sad or needy, by the way, those are the three. And then be able to tell their loved one in a you know, in an empathic way, I’m really angry when you do that. I need you to please stop. That can take months to years to get them to do that. So once they’re able to really know themselves and really be able to express themselves, then they get to have to that beautiful verbal intercourse of then listening. Them listening to their significant others’ viewpoint and feelings and then come up with a compromise. That’s the intimacy we have between sex, you know, being able to say, OK, we have a problem. We’re going to solve this problem. And now you and your significant other have a relationship. This is where the relationship is at the heart of it.
Gabe Howard: It’s interesting that you said that being selfish is a good thing. And if that’s what being selfish is then, I agree. But I don’t think that’s how most people understand selfishness. I think that most people understand selfishness, as, you know, not sharing or not communicating or being, you know, disinterested or not going to the restaurant that I like or seeing the movies that I want to see or participating in activities that I like. Like, you know, not compromising is what most people see as selfishness.
Laura Dabney, MD: I don’t know about that. That’s why we have so much fun with my patients to say, where’s that line where does self-aware? And are any of those things really wrong or is it that you’re not expressing it? That I really want to go to movies by myself and there’s some way we can work this out? I really like doing that. It helps my stress. How do you feel? Better. I’ll go with you sometime. So it’s not really those things that are selfish, and that’s why my patients come in. Because they are so convinced themselves that any sort of want to do something themselves is selfish. I use it that way as a challenge to them. It’s not that it’s selfish. It’s not that it’s not any thought. Again, thoughts or feelings, not wanting to do any of it isn’t selfish. It’s when and how you carry it out that makes it negative, whether it’s selfish, lazy, mean, or cruel. You know, these are all very fine lines, but it really depends on how the other person is taking it. But someone else could say, you know, you working overtime is selfish, even though I might be doing it for the family or for a trip to take together. Again, it isn’t the things that they’re doing on their behalf or they’re doing by themselves that’s the problem. It’s the fact that they often don’t communicate it, or even understand it themselves. So they try to go around it. It’s all that.
Vincent M. Wales: I think that’s a key point there. But, because as Gabe was saying, that we grew up thinking that X, Y or Z is a selfish act and therefore wrong or even a selfish thought and therefore wrong, understanding the difference between the thought itself and the execution of it is really critical. And I don’t think many of us really take a lot of time to think about that.
Laura Dabney, MD: That’s exactly it in a nutshell right there. It’s just like lazy. We have the same discussion about lazy. You know, I can’t just sit around and be lazy. But then why did the government make it mandatory to have lunch breaks and coffee? It’s a fine line there. With what you do with that sitting around is let’s say you sit around and you don’t listen to your spouse, then say, no, you don’t. It’s really annoying me that that, you know, you aren’t helping me out with the chores on Sunday. Well, then it is lazy. It is somehow detrimental in some way. But just sitting around isn’t lazy. Just like doing something you want to do for yourself isn’t selfish necessarily.
Gabe Howard: It’s interesting, because I can hear an argument devolve into what the definition of selfish is, and I imagine that maybe you see patients that are at that level. They’re just they’re arguing about the meaning of words, or maybe they’re throwing out words and concepts that they don’t fully understand. Like back to the beginning of our show, where we asked isn’t being selfish being narcissistic? And you were like, well, no, not even close. People believe this.
Laura Dabney, MD: Oh, I know. It’s at the heart of the emotional and relationship problems that they have, they come in and they have a long list. It isn’t just selfish. Believe me, it’s like this long list of things. I’m not kidding. Take hatred. I mean, how many times have you heard parents say that we don’t say hate, we don’t like to say hateful. Hating someone is normal. A normal feeling. People have hate all the time. And so you hear you say that to a kid enough and they think, oh, something’s wrong. My mother gets very anxious, upset when I say hate, so I can’t even think hate. I’ve got to erase that from my mind, well, you can’t erase it from your mind, A. And B, all feelings need oxygen to dissipate. All feelings need to be felt and dealt with for them to go away. This is why every culture around the whole globe has funeral rites and passages and services. Not because we love to sit around and cry, but we encourage each other to do that because we know inherently that is how this grief is going to dissipate.
Gabe Howard: That’s actually a very interesting point, you’re right. People do handle grief differently, and sometimes we judge how people are handling grief. We say, well, that is not how somebody should react when they’re.
Vincent M. Wales: Right.
Gabe Howard: You know, mom, spouse, et cetera, dies because we have our own beliefs on how grief should look.
Laura Dabney, MD: Exactly. Just like we’ll see somebody do something for themselves. Oh, they’re selfish or they’re narcissists or they’re over the top with their grief, or not grieving enough. Exactly. So that’s judgment. Judging them of how they’re handling it. But really, that’s a very intimate thing. That’s where it’s at. That what intimacy is. We don’t talk to strangers on the street about our grief or sadness or anger, or selfish ideas, or what have you. We save that for our closest people in our lives, especially our significant other. They’re the ones we need to open up to and be able to talk to about them. And if we don’t understand them ourselves or we think they’re off limits, they’re not going to talk to us.
Gabe Howard: I can really see the challenges that you as a practitioner would have. Again, if people really just don’t understand the rules of engagement, because what you’re really talking about here are, you know, setting boundaries and setting the rules for your relationship. And everybody has all of these different feelings. But one of the questions I want to ask you is, just why is boundaries setting so important?
Laura Dabney, MD: Well, so people come in with a relationship problem. Either they’re doing something destructive or they’re not stopping destructive behavior and they’re locked. I mean, that’s, again, very broad. But people come in and say, I’m doing something destructive. Maybe texting. I’m sexting with my secretary. I’m not whatever. That’s OK. That I can help them. But when people come to me saying that somebody else is doing something destructive and they’re not setting a boundary. So it’s like it’s enabling. So I have to then get them to say, OK, you can’t change him. I got good news for you. You can’t change somebody else, but you can do something. And then I have to go to the whole boundary thing. But again, a lot of people have compared setting a boundary to being mean. or to driving somebody away. And I’m not allowed. It’s selfish for me to set that boundary. Who am I to say don’t have a fifth of whiskey every night or whatever? So that’s when we have to talk about boundaries.
Gabe Howard: Just out of curiosity, what would you say to somebody? I mean, if I said, who’s for me to say that my wife can’t sext her secretary? I mean, I can’t. I can’t say that. Your response to me would be?
Laura Dabney, MD: How does it make you feel when he sexts his secretary?
Gabe Howard: I mean, it makes me feel terrible. I just, FYI, my wife is not doing this. It’s just it’s kind of sad because I think we all sort of fall into this. Right? Probably not as big as secretaries, but we get upset at, you know, maybe little jokes or the behavior of someone and we think, well, I’m being too sensitive or I’m being too needy or I’m just gonna let this one go, because overall, this person is a good spouse, friend, business partner, whatever. So you’ve got kind of a hard job there because you’ve got to convince them that it’s in the relationships’ best interests for them to do the thing that they are sort of arguing with you that they shouldn’t do. How do you turn that around?
Laura Dabney, MD: So, we’re back to the beginning again. And so we’re back to and they say, oh, he’s sexting so and so and all the time and on his phone, blah, blah, blah. How does it make you feel? And then a lot of times I literally have to, because they can’t tell me because they’ve walled it off. So I have to say, OK, here’s some feeling words – needy, sad, joyful. And they’ll go needy. I feel needy, like I need his attention. OK. What keeps you from telling him that it’s time you can’t sext or text anymore? I need your attention after dinner for a few hours, I can’t have you on the phone with other women or other people. It makes me feel very left out and abandoned.
Gabe Howard: But what about the straight up deal breakers? And you know, unfortunately, we kind of went a little south picking something as big as the secretary. Most relationships are not OK with with cheating. I mean, what about like the hard stops? What about that? No. If you continue doing this, then I’m not going to stick around. How do you handle those? Because people still feel badly about enforcing even what I think most people would consider reasonable boundaries.
Laura Dabney, MD: But that’s when people have trouble with aggression. So that’s the same as anger. There’s constructive aggression and destructive aggression. There’s some people who feel that all aggression is bad, but what about going for a gold medal? What about avoiding a rabbit in the road? Those are all things that take aggression to do it. And they’re like, oh, I never thought about that. So if your relationship is being hurt by somebody doing something and you say first I feel X when you do, Y, what is the template I gave you? But I feel X and you do Y and they go, Oh, I’m so sorry. And they stop. Great. If they don’t, you have to increase aggression because it’s your agenda. It’s bothering you. I mean, we get really upset when I’ve said it once and they should do it forever. It’s like, well, no, it’s not his agenda. He doesn’t know it hurts you when he wears blue. You have to remind him, and that’s upping the aggression. Listen, I’ve told you now a couple of times that this is hurtful to me and you keep doing it. So we need to do something about this and we’re going to start this up. Well, the problem is, I don’t trust you are going to stop now. So whatever it is, I think we’re going to need to go talk to somebody about this behavior because you’re not able to control it and it’s destroying our relationship or my trust in you and thus it’s destroying our relationship. So that’s increasing the aggression. It’s constructive aggression because you’re holding a relationship together. You’re not bearing that resentment, which then sits there like a lump and you carry it around like a ball and chain, and then eventually it’ll seep out in the form of maybe imploding. That’s where people start being, you know, suicidal or hurting themselves in some way. Or they explode and they just at an inopportune moment explode over something tiny. Because they didn’t up the aggression. They didn’t push that agenda.
Vincent M. Wales: So you ever have situations where you have one person say, well, here’s my relationship problem, my spouse is saying that I’m doing this, that I’m too needy or I’m too this or that or the other thing? And once you get all of the details, you think to yourself, yeah, you are? How do you address that?
Laura Dabney, MD: Well, needy is a normal feeling, so I never say that.
Vincent M. Wales: Well, maybe that’s a bad example, but.
Laura Dabney, MD: I don’t know. I don’t know how. Maybe give me another. For example if someone says you’re too needy or this?
Vincent M. Wales: Well, you know, neediness can go too far to come clinginess. And then suffocation and then all of those things.
Laura Dabney, MD: So it was just like anger can lead to murder, but it’s not.
Vincent M. Wales: Right.
Laura Dabney, MD: That’s when the person has to be empathic and say, listen, I feel like I need your attention after dinner. Can you please give me at least an hour to sit and talk with me, whatever. That’s what the other guy says. You know, I just after dinner is my time to unwind by myself. And I’d like to get to my whatever and do that. So can we compromise? That’s where they compromise. That’s the verbal intercourse right there. That’s something I need. This other person says, oh, I need that, actually. Then they should stand back together. Look at what’s on the table. I call it “nobody has to die.” So you have your need there. Need. And you say, what are we going to do about that? And that’s the beauty. That’s what people are missing. That’s the intimacy. Oh, this is our compromise. My mentor, gave me a great example of this. His wife went back to to law school when they had a young son. And my mentor thought that it was damaging to their son. Their mother wasn’t home. She had to work late nights and wasn’t home for dinner. And so he said, look, I really miss you. Our son misses you. You know what are we going to do? And she said, well, I need to stay at work in order to make partner. Blah, blah. So they come up with a compromise that he would put their son down for a nap in the evening. And then when the wife came home at 8:00, they would eat and they put the kid down at midnight. He said nobody in their right mind would ever say, let’s put the kid down at midnight. But they did, because that was their compromise. That was what their family did. It worked out great for them. And actually, their son turned out to be a really amazing person. So that’s a great example of where they had to come up with their own rules, their own ideas to get something to work for the family.
Gabe Howard: They had to do what was best for their relationship and not worry about all of the other relationships or what other people may think.
Laura Dabney, MD: Yes. Bingo.
Gabe Howard: I guess I kind of want to switch gears a little bit and talk about healthy relationships. And if your relationship is healthy, what are some things that just occurred naturally? I mean, does anything occur naturally? What do you not have to ask for in your partner? What will just be there in a healthy relationship?
Laura Dabney, MD: I think what should or what will be there in a healthy relationship is someone will be very comfortable with their feelings and very empathic of their partner’s feelings. And it’s sort of intuitive then to have those both on the table and compromise. So they do it more fluid. They don’t have any anger. They don’t have meanness, they don’t have sadness. Or if things aren’t working out it’s not that they don’t have the feelings. They just trust that they will be able to work out those feelings with their partner. That becomes more fluid.
Vincent M. Wales: That sounds fair. I’m wondering if I’ve ever experienced that.
Gabe Howard: Well, Vin, you and I are not good people to discuss healthy relationships.
Vincent M. Wales: We’re really not.
Laura Dabney, MD: Look, I’ve got some time slots next week.
Gabe Howard: You are very, very awesome. We really appreciate you being on the show. We’re really near the end. Do you have any words of wisdom? What information have we not covered that we really just want to leave the listeners with?
Laura Dabney, MD: Well, I like to always leave with a red flag statement. You know, there are people who cannot be in relationships. And this is a surprise for some people. There are people who cannot do intimacy because they cannot do it on the inside. There are people who have trouble doing it, but they come in and they can learn. But there are actually people who cannot learn that. They are afraid of intimacy on some unconscious level. They start to get close and then they sabotage it in some way and then they don’t want to be abandoned and they come back in. So I’m sure you’ve known couples like this, where they just can’t get it together. I always advise, you know, if it’s a red flag, you’ve got to leave, hopefully leave before the marriage. But if you’re married and it’s a red flag situation, instead of trying to change that person. Some things you just can’t get an intimate relationship with. You’ve got to go.
Gabe Howard: Well, thank you so much. And where can people find you online?
Laura Dabney, MD: So my website is LauraDabney.com, Instagram is LauraDabneycom, Facebook is Laura Dabney, M.D. and you can always go the old fashioned way and give me a call at (757) 340-8800.
Gabe Howard: Well, we love that. Thank you so much for being on our show. We really, really appreciate you.
Vincent M. Wales: Yes, thank you.
Laura Dabney, MD: Thank you, guys.
Gabe Howard: And thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Remember, you can get one week of free, convenient, affordable, private online counselling anytime, anywhere by visiting BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. We will see everybody next week.
Narrator 1: Thank you for listening to the Psych Central Show. Please rate, review, and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you found this podcast. We encourage you to share our show on social media and with friends and family. Previous episodes can be found at PsychCentral.com/show. PsychCentral.com is the internet’s oldest and largest independent mental health website. Psych Central is overseen by Dr. John Grohol, a mental health expert and one of the pioneering leaders in online mental health. Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who travels nationally. You can find more information on Gabe at GabeHoward.com. Our co-host, Vincent M. Wales, is a trained suicide prevention crisis counselor and author of several award-winning speculative fiction novels. You can learn more about Vincent at VincentMWales.com. If you have feedback about the show, please email [email protected].
About The Psych Central Show Podcast Hosts
Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar and anxiety disorders. He is also one of the co-hosts of the popular show, A Bipolar, a Schizophrenic, and a Podcast. As a speaker, he travels nationally and is available to make your event stand out. To work with Gabe, please visit his website, gabehoward.com.
Vincent M. Wales is a former suicide prevention counselor who lives with persistent depressive disorder. He is also the author of several award-winning novels and creator of the costumed hero, Dynamistress. Visit his websites at www.vincentmwales.com and www.dynamistress.com.