I have been thinking about this question ever since I read it on a discussion thread in Group Beyond Blue. Meg writes:
So, my husband has shown interest in getting a handgun permit. It’s the South, and lots of …
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I hope following references will be useful to your discussion:
The Harvard School of Public Health has shown that “Means Matter” when examining the methods used to attempt suicide. Firearms are measurably more lethal than drug overdose and nearly every other method:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter
Further, a New England Journal of Medicine study found that the risk of suicide is five times greater in households with guns.
Kellermann, AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. “Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership.” New England Journal of Medicine. 1992; 327: 467-472.
Doug Pennington
BradyCampaign.org
Doug, by saying “nearly every other method”, you imply that there may be a method of attempting suicide even more lethal than guns. If there is such a method, do all of us a favor and don’t tell us what it is.
Therese,
New patients are often surprised when I ask them bluntly about their suicidal thoughts and possible plans. If a person is in severe pain, depressed or not, the thought of a way out (and suicide is a way out) is probably there. It makes no sense to pretend otherwise and denying it could be disastrous.
Your advice is excellent for the reasons you give and backed up by the statistics provided by Doug. Thanks to you and to Meg for having the courage to be direct about such a taboo subject.
Elvira
There really should never be any negotiation with a patient who is depressed who has access to firearms, because as was said above, the lethality is at the top of the list and in these days of murder/suicides, other people are at risk who should not be at risk.
Some topics, not many mind you, but in this case this one fits the black and white boundaries that are not up to negotiate. If the patient cannot agree to remove the risk for lethality, that is a sign the patient is at immediate risk or is minimizing the expertise he/she was coming to for assistance in the first place. And if the situation is involving possible involuntary committment, then the patient won’t be able to leave until the weapon is accounted for by a responsible third party.
It is that black and white, folks, and those who want to color it do not appreciate the efforts that go into helping others stay alive and return to a productive, positive self. It will be interesting to see what others chime in on this topic.
Think about this issue after reading about a murder suicide of a family and learning what was minimized or rationalized by outside parties prior.
Skillsnotpills
I can certainly forgive someone for committing suicide, and I really do not take it personally.
It’s just so sad that they felt they had to go that way.
And I also do not hold it against anyone when they secretly keep a weapon, in case they may need to use it in the future. When you are old and sick and depressed, it’s no longer that easy to get hold of a gun.
I also do not think you can prevent someone from killing themselves, no matter what. If they really want to do it, they will.
If I were suicidal, I may very well seek both help and still have what I need to do it, and both aspects are true and real. (vs. being manipulative)
I had a friend who had a teenager who was both ‘Major Depression’ and an ‘Addict’, serious case. The mother was an extremely respected psychiatrist/therapist, and her friend, a psychiatrist, also, was treating the daughter.
Well, she killed herself at age 19, and both the mother, and the daughter’s treating psychiatrist stopped practicing their profession.
The mother told me she could no longer treat suicidal patients and that if a patient went on and on about it, she just wanted to encourage the patient to go ahead and do it.
And, I don’t think for a moment that suicide is all about choice.
Actually, and this is a whole other topic, but also a very serious one. When you want to live but are killing yourself against your own will.
After the death of my father when I was 15 I certainly became depressed. I am not talking about feeling depressed while grieving, my case turned into full blown major depression. I had times where I felt so low that I can see how one would get to the point to where they would no longer want to continue to live. The pain of cutting yourself or shooting yourself may hurt, but not as badly as the feelings of despair and hopelessness. But then I would think of my dad and his zest for life. How he so desperately wanted to live, but didn’t have a choice. Cancer took his life away at 51. He was the most alive person I ever knew. I think about all of the people on this earth that are stricken with terminal illness and how they are going to die when they so desperately want to and when I get to that bad and dark place, that helps me press on. I know it may not help for everyone but it does for me.
I am a proponent of the 2d Amendment, but I’ve never purchased a handgun out of fear that I would use it to take my life. Then I got married and my husband is a self-described gun nut. I never told him about my previous suicide attempt or that if I ever got to that point again, my plan would be to use a gun because of its effectiveness. After reading this, I’m glad I never told him.
I used to have a lot of problems with deep depression. I, too, tagged the places in teh yellow pages where I would make my purchase if I needed to. I think there were two things my therapist did that were very important in helping me get past this obsession.
First, was the reminder of how my actions would affect others. I didn’t really want to think about that, and she made sure I did. I come from a loving family and I knew it would cause a lot of pain which is why I didnt want to think about it. She also pointed out that someone would have to literally clean up my mess, and she questioned if I thought of the impact on that person. I hadn’t thought of that part. Some might say it’s wrong to make the patient feel even more guilty – it was necessary for me.
Secondly, she didn’t beat me over the head by bringing it up every session like my previous therapist had. There really is such a thing as badgering the patient about suicidal ideation which only increased my anxiety & made things worse. It helped to have a bit of a breather from the constant questioning and signing of contracts. Unlike my former therapist, the latter therapist believed I could handle life and I gradually began to believe it, too.
But, ultimately for me it came down to a decision I made several years ago and that is I finally decided that I didn’t have the right to hurt other people simply because I was miserable. That sucked because that meant either a lifetime of misery or that I was going to have to find a way to deal.
A funny thing happened. Once I didn’t have that option/crutch to fall back on, it gradually became less of an issue. I still have problems with depression, but planning my demise is no longer a part of it.
Claire, thank you for your bravery in sharing your story, and the things your therapist did that were helpful (and not-so-helpful) for your journey toward recovery. While debilitating depression can be a lifelong struggle, I’m glad that you are beginning to enjoy life a bit more, and are embracing the courage to move forward. Good for you!
First of all, there are people who get angry over people who are suicidal and make attempts at it. Their view of it is that the person is being selfish, not taking into account of the consequences it has on their loved ones. Or they view the person as being weak or even both. It is understandable that people would feel that way when a person they hold dear would make a lethal and permenant decision such as that esp. when you hope for them to live on so that you can enjoy their relationship further.
However, it nevertheless angers me when I hear this from others who don’t understand that major depression or any mental illness can skew your reasoning. The problem I have is that when these people say that committing suicide is a selfish act, I get the sense they are implying that suicide is a pleasurable experience. Far from it! I doubt that anyone commits suicide because they thought to themselves that it would be such a wonderful pleasure or another form of entertainment. These people commit suicide because they have such a pessimistic and irrational view of themselves, seeing themselves as defective or pathetic. They see themselves as one who are too weak to handle life and therefore they have no reasons to live. In a word, they have a horrendous self-esteem.
Another of their opinion that angers me is their view that people who commit suicide are weak. Well, it is true that some people who commit suicide do judge themselves as being weak but I honestly don’t see why we should be feeding them this negativity ourselves.
I would prefer that instead of us battering the suicidal, we should learn to be actually supportive. Instead of seeing them as criminals, we should see them as misguided individuals that need our support and empathy.
The topic of suicide is indeed a very controversial one and sometimes, depending on the negative tone of the conversation, can lead someone to pursue their initial plan to commit suicide. When people express their feelings on the topic in a negative way, they can further encourage those depressed feelings and feelings of “nonbeing.” For example, consider a man who has lost his job, cannot pay for his child’s education, cannot pay bills, or put food on the table for his family. He suffers depression as a result of the loss of a great job in a law firm for 20 years. He now sees no reason to live as many people have judged him for losing his job and now further judge him for considering suicide.
This is, in fact, a true story. This person was suicidal not only because of his circumstance, but also because of the disproving statements given by those who looked down upon him for considering suicide. The very statement of “suicide is selfish” can cause a host of unconstructive thoughts of one’s life and existence.
One of the most important things is how we converse about suicidal ideation and the people who consider suicide. If we take a judgmental position and demonstrate adverse feelings for that person, we can help push them into committing suicide by helping to exacerbate despondant feelings. Because of the delicacy of the persons state of mind and the feelings attached to them, it is essential that we consider the state of mind in which the person is in before we begin to judge them for considering a way out, and sometimes the only way out for that person.
Wouldn’t you agree?
Furthermore, I do believe that suicidal ideation can be more devastating for a spouse, a child, a grandchild, etc. than the person who has committed the act. Suicide is something that society tends to disregard as something for only the “weak people,” “poor people,” or “unsuccessful people with no direction or life.” This prejudgment is false. Suicide occurs among some of our most strongest family members and most intelligent. It is sort of reflective of the flu, everyone is susceptible some time during their life.
Suicide is a mental state all of its own; it doesn’t allow room for rationing at all. When this happens, I’m not all too sure a person can be stopped because their mind is made up, their feelings are directing their behavior and their logical side, and life doesn’t offer any more lemonade from those bitter lemons so to speak. I’m a firm believer that if someone wants to leave this world (with or without a weapon), they will leave it and no one, no psychologist, no suicide hotline, can stop them. I might change my perspective on this one day, but for now…I don’t see anything psychotherapy or the psychopharmacological industry can offer to put those feelings of suicide to rest. Some depressions and life circumstances are just that agonizing.
What would be interesting is a study on the difference between those who make it out of the “suicidal mind frame” and those who do not.
Thanks, Dr. T, very good comment. The same goes for Carlos’ comment.
The moment I was most at risk for committing suicide, I think the experience with my therapist was really helpful. I have never felt so much empathy, so much warmth, so much support than on that session. I felt connected, I was not alone anymore. And when you’re suicidal, you’re so desperate alone. There was someone who literally helped to support my burden…
So I think that was really, really helpful for me.
I can relate, Miek. I cannot even imagine a therapist responding to my bringing up suicidal feelings, with an immediate “Do you have a plan and a weapon?” Never mind some of the other things people have mentioned here re: criticism.
And, that is one reason people do not confine in therapists and others about such feelings. I wouldn’t either.
My son, when he was 16, once asked me if I had ever felt suicidal. After taking a moment to think, I told him ‘yes’, and that I had, and that I think most people at some point in their lives fee that way.
I then asked him if he was feeling any such feelings, and if that was why he had asked me.
To make a long story short, my boy was so relieved when I told him what I did, and he said ‘yes, he was’. Also, that he had been so afraid to tell me because I figured I would immediately stick him into a mental hospital.
I told him ‘no’, that I wouldn’t, and to please tell me….
Kat
Dr. Mallett, thank you for your kind words. Major depression sucks. Carlos, I agree with you. I absolutely do not see those who commit suicide as weaker or selfish. I see them as people in a tremendous amount of pain. In fact, I’ve heard psychologists say that those who are suicidal are wanting to get back at someone. I totally disagree with that. That was not true for me. I very much love my family and friends, and I didn’t want to get back at anyone. I just wanted relief.
It’s hard for me to explain and I probably didn’t do it very well. But, I want to say that my therapist was very kind to me. Even though the words were difficult to hear she spoke them gently. I wouldn’t have listened if she had been harsh, and I was doing a great job beating myself up already.
For me (and I’m only speaking for myself here) I had this battle inside where I wanted nothing more than for the pain to stop and to not wake up anymore, but I agonized over the decision because I didn’t want to hurt anyone. It was an excrutiatingly painful time. I can only describe it as this vicious tug-of-war inside. I was trying to divorce myself from the effects of this on other people so that I could do it and end this misery and pain, and my therapist wouldn’t let me divorce myself from it. I think it very easily could have ended differently, and I’m grateful it didn’t.
The point at which I was able to think clearly about it, and actually mull over the effects on other people was not when I was deepest in it. That’s why my therapist was so important. She would bring reality back to me. It was only when the pain lessened that I started telling myself that I didn’t have the right to do it, and repeating that over and over again, until it became my truth. I wanted to retain the right to end it all, and as long as it was my option I continued to be drawn to it. For me it was very much an obsession.
I’m just sharing my experience. I am certainly not claiming that my experience is “the” depression experience. I do not see myself as better or stronger, just damn lucky.
I am obsessed with suicidal thoughts. I am filled with apathy in nearly all things. my 21 year old daughter keeps me here, however I find I am resenting that. I am no one, coming from a religious upringing, and feel totally abandoned by God. I feel like a small child learning the truth about Santa (which started my first bought with serious depression and apathy).I have lots of meds. No one knows. I am weary and beyond fatigued. I got rid of lots of junk, cleaned out closets and the kitchen. I am 41. My pain is so deep that my entire body feels it. No one understands my overwhelming need to feel accepted and “known” by God. Where is he? I don’t know how many days will go on. Lost my horrid job in May.I have no desire or mental strength for another. Nothing to live for. I sleep for 20 hours or more each day. My brain is becomming silent of late whereas before it was so loud I could never sleep. Death will be momentarily painful, afterwhich I hope to find peace, or to at least finally be placed in whatever hell is prepared for me, a failure in all things and in all ways. I just want it to be over with at last.
I recently had obsessive suicidal thought as a side effect of a medication I was taking for bipolar. It was like my mind was split in two: The part that was planning the suicide and the plans for how my kidw would be taken care of and the ration part that thought the ideas were absurd. I am glad I talked to myhusband therapist right away, ecause we called my psychiatrist and he took me off the meds. I went to the hospital to make sure I was safe, and the thoughts subsided slowly as the medication removed itself from my body. I am doing much better now on a new medication.
As a person who has attempted suicide over the course of many years, I don’t really think someone asking me if I am suicidal or have ideations causes them. They are already in my head.
The only thing I have to do is allow myself to ‘go visit’ the past where I know will bring those hurting and painful memories back.
I know that having a mental health challenge (I have bipolar disorder) makes me more at risk for suicide. Sometimes I get to wondering if suicide isn’t worth getting out of this troubled and crappy world….
The answer is always NO. Because I have been involved with one friends suicide and in the aftermath, it tore her family all to pieces (not to say it didn’t cause me to rethink my pathway) cause it did!
I have learned from her ultimate suicide (sometimes though living is more painful) and have learned more healthy ways to deal with life issues.
That still doesn’t keep those old tapes from rambling through my head especially when times are mean and lean!
Hope one can understand what I am trying to say!
so, umm, i have a question.
i was recently diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and i’m now taking meds that are supposed to be helping. they’re not, really. or at least, not much. i still get the feelings of being either insanely high emotionally or in a deep dark pit of hell.
i’m not exactly sure if this is where i should be asking this question, but here goes: who should i go to when i’m tempted to commit suicide? and should i tell my therapist that i’ve made actual plans before? and how do i tell her, when i’m either thinking those thoughts at that moment, or feel ashamed of them, or feel good enough to think they aren’t important?
i mean, right now i’m feeling somewhere in between, both depressed and sky high (emotionally, just clarifying, i don’t do drugs).
but at the same point, i have this major fear of being carted off to a mental facility. i don’t quite know what to do.
I am so happy you told him. It is our inability to speak (at least for me) when we are in that place that causes so many problems. I have a similar situation. The only difference is there are about 5 guns in my house right now. Fortunately I can’t use a gun or get to one without someone in the house finding out. I have to live with my mother-in-law and her two daughters and my husband and our daughter and my niece and nephew. They are so scared that I will try something that I am never left alone.
I guess it’s a good thing. It keeps me from shooting myself. I can’t even pick up a knife or pill bottle without being questioned.
You definately need to have the gun locked away. I would suggest always having locked away. You may get to that point and your husband not be aware of it. These are just chances that we shouldn’t take.
Good Luck! Get Well!
Thanks for sharing everyone. I know this is not my blog…but I just wanted to say how brave I think you are for at least sharing. Sharing our most deepest feelings can sometimes heal us in the process of sharing! Please forgive this long post, but I wanted to address two people.
luthien588, I would highly encourage you to speak with your therapist. If you feel that your therapist is not helping you in any way, change therapists. You are not obligated to stick with him, even if for financial purposes. There are always other options. Some therapists can be worse than the horrid circumstances in our lives. So it is best to “cherry pick,” that is, look around for someone until you feel comfortable enough to confide in them.
If your really feeling suicidal, I would speak to either your therapist or pharmacist about the type of medication you are taking. Some medications don’t mix well with the chemistry of our brains. Other medications have side effects that can cause suicidal ideation. Please try 1-800-237-talk, which is the National Suicide Hotline also at http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/. With bipolar disorder, particularly cyclothymia (a milder form), feeling both depressed and manic is referred to as mixed episodes. Left untreated, it can worsen.
Mystie, I understand how you feel. I too grew up in a religious house-hold. I knew and understood and still understand God in my life. Without Him I’m not sure I could manage most days. Have you thought of seeking spiritual guidance or some sort of religious counseling? Sometimes it is best if we seek Christian counselors, Catholic counselors, or simply a religious counselor who can help us to integrate our relationship with God into our life a little better so that our despondent feelings do not debunk God and push us over the edge.
There is a religious counseling station on 101.5 WORD FM (24-hours) called New Life at 1-800-New-LIFE. They talk about a variety of things and can answer many of your questions. I would give them a try.
Know that all your suffering is not in vain. The Bible says…Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Romans 8:16-18 In other words, in order for us to share in His glory, we must also suffer with Him first.
Best wishes
Do not under any circumstances keep a gun in the house or anywhere you may have access to it! Suicide is sometimes an impulsive act and a firearm not only has the instant power to kill you, it also has the power to maim you and still leave you alive. Yes, I’ve given it some thought too. I imagined failing to kill myself and how impossible it would be to pull the trigger twice if I had to.
Yeah, I have knives around the house, but am less likely to focus on them. A firearm has a certain romantic mystique to it. It doesn’t belong anywhere near a person who suffers from depression.
uuhh…im suicidal… now why in the world would u give us ideas??…umm.. good thing im having a good day.
Dr. T, I know this is not my blog, either, but I really like you a lot. kat
What’s more selfish? Ending my own pain while in an irrational state, or being pissed instead of helpful when you’re in a rational state?
If you’re rational, be helpful. If I’m irrational, how can I be selfish?
Just make sure, guys, before anything else, that you are not feeling suicidal from your medications, or your therapist, or therapy.
And then, find someone you can trust to talk to.
And then, don’t think so much about others, and how you cannot kill yourself because of others. Find out what is really bothering you, and this may or may not have anything to do with others.
I resent the “stoned hippie” comment. Marijuana does not decrease your ability to use logic. It also has no link to depression or suicide. To think that someone could get stoned enough to make it ok to think about suicide is totally ridiculous.
My brother once expressed interest in buying a gun after his home was broken into.
I gave him all kinds of reasons not to. But I didn’t mention the real reason, which was that I feared he’d someday kill himself with it, because he had a history of depression and suicidal thoughts.
Good news: he never did buy a gun.
Bad news: he just found some other way to kill himself.
I agree 100% that suicidal people should get rid of their guns, or never acquire them in the first place. But I wish I had confronted his suicidal thoughts and depression much more directly. Maybe then he’d still be around.
I know exactly what he was going through because I have had those thoughts for so long myself. We could have supported each other; we both would’ve understood.
Interesting to point out about purchasing a gun while mental state is irrational, I was freaked out to discover that my mother who had bought a long rifle gun in 1980′s, our neighbours won’t have bought any guns in our small, local town. Where had she got that purchase from? Her mental state? Out of order and impulsive act? Had she considered about her three small children (including me)? She was so high, overspent, disorganised and very irritable too. She was a single mother, heavy smoker, coffolic and alcoholic too. What she had done that would never leave my consciousness. It has impacted my whole life and would never get the chance to know my mother who had passed away at 41 year old. Now, I’m more worried about my sister who has a very similar behaviour of our mother’s. Depression is serious and it deserves to be loved and supported.
So how do you find good therapists? I thought I had a good one,but didn’t. When i told her that I was thinking of suicide the previous week, she said she was so sorry that I had been feeling so low and to tell my psycharist about it. Then she changed the subject to if if possible had ADD. She never inquired about what plans I had or about protecting myself from access to items I was considering using. I made an attempt the following weekend.
I was afraid of being committed, mostlly because I didn’t want people to find out. I am still afraid of being committed even though it wasn’t as bad as I had expected. I spent a week in the crisis unit, but I don’t think anyone other than my husband and mother-in law even know the true reason I was in the hospital. My parents and sisters don’t know about it at all.
Anyway, I was looking for suggestions for finding a good therapist becasue finding someone you felt you click with may not be best depending on how they would handle a crisis situation.
Dear All,
In the past I have thought about suicide and also own several guns myself. I had it all planned out so that it would be the most effective. I wanted to use my 44 magnum with a hollow point round so there wouldn’t me much left of my skull. But everytime I think about how it would hurt my family I don’t go through with it. Believe it or not the more I shoot my guns and I only do so at an established range the more I respect what they are capable of and that I need to focus more on what I enjoy about life than what I hate about myself. I think that this issue should be delt with on a case by case basis. Just because it happened to a friend or a friend of a friend doesn’t mean that it’s going to be the same everytime. Statistics can only show what has happened in the past, not what may happen in the future. If a person truly wants to commit suicide, and they don’t have a gun, they will find a way. Be honest with your family members about what you have been through so they can help you get through tough times and no have your husband or wife wondering “why didn’t they say anything, or I never knew they had depression.” And don’t forget that having a gun won’t make you want to commit suicide, depression does that. Bottom line find a good therapist and if you already have one great. Finding a good therapist is like buying a new car, you have to test drive them before you start a treatment program. One way that always helped me was talking to the military chaplain, it’s the military term for a preacher or priest. The best way to find the help you need is to try all the options you have before you. And if you are going to a therapist that just blows it off when you mention suicide, they need to be reported. If they don’t think they can handle that situation they need to say so and tactfully refer you to someone else immediatley.
Very well said Mike! I grew up around guns and even hunted with my dad. I think a lot of problems with guns arise because so many people are not taught how to use them properly or to respect them.
I didn’t even consider using a gun even though I had past experence with them. I wasn’t exactly thinking rationally. I chose what I could picture myself doing rather than the most effecctive.
It’s definitely a personal choice whether to own a gun. If you do, think of safety first. The most important rule is to have the gun and ammo locked up and stored separately.
I am a nearly 49-year-old woman who has lived alone most of my life. I have never bought a gun because I, too, fear it would make things too easy. A lot of methods are pretty iffy; I would never try those. But a gun is a pretty safe bet, so I’ve never bought a gun, and I wouldn’t live with someone who has a gun around. It gets unbearable sometimes; all I want is a quick way out. I’m afraid a gun would make it way too easy. The woman who wrote that could have been me; I understand completely.
I had a client who kept a loaded gun under her bed after her three year old son was molested.
A day or two after she placed it there, (a single mother) the boy found it and started playing with it and shot himself through the stomach.
Luckily, they lived close to a great ER, and his life could be saved after several hours of surgery.
Hell, I flinched when I saw the graphic at the top of the page unexpectedly.
“If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it’s not going to be fired, it shouldn’t be hanging there.”
— Playwright Anton Chekhov (From S. Shchukin, Memoirs. 1911.)
For me today so far is a fairly good day. But the urge to grab any means to go away is always, always there. 55 years now, since I was a child, every means within view or within reach is somehow more visible and more tempting than anything else in the world.
Just said no, so far.
But I wish I hadn’t had your gun picture popped up unexpectedly. It’s going to be with me all day.
Nobody this doesn’t happen to can imagine it. And for those of us it happens to all the time, it’s incredibly hard to imagine what a normal human brain must be like to inhabit.
I have been depressed for a very long time. I am very tired of life. i understand that feelings pass, but the problem is that I also know they come back again. I did buy a gun last week and have it ready, but I am scared about leaving my kids and how it may damage them. At the same time, I am also tired of living my life to make other people happy all the time. I feel like by staying here is only making my kids unhappy because I am always so depressed. I recently lost my job because I was hospitalized for an eating disorder for 3 months. Last week, I filed for a divorce after 22 years together. My middle son will be leaving for college this year. I am just so tired of hurting, part of me does not want to die ONLY because of my kids, but the other part wants to just get drunk, get guts and get it over with.
I am in thearpy and I am very satisfied with her, however I also feel like I am putting my thearpist in a bad place because I just cant shake these feelings of depressions, for the past 5 years and feel like I am just getting worse. Just TIRED!
first note my country we dont have access to legal firearms, they are here but in the underworld. Not even the police have them, i have recently been going through a tough time, being told I cannot be a mum, due to a medical condition and now a lump/mass once more, had the same thing 3 years ago, and desperately fought with my body and mind to become well again, so as you can imagine, this time round the fear is no less and now my mental health has started playing tunes in my head once more,