Um great info, very fascinating and all… It is all so darned logically correct, I guess, until you see the picture that was selected to represent the ‘group’ of people who have all the problems. How can anyone figure all the isms out, and then suggest that someone feeling and living through it would be accurately portrayed in the ‘giddy’ image that was chosen? Maybe look at your viewing lens, and remember that stigmas are very easy to create, with logical words like the ones you wrote.

Impressive… I found all my personas listed in full detail. All 4 of them in a row.

Can you gently point out to a narcissist that he is, indeed, a narcissist? After a very stormy online relationship with one, I told him that I forgive him for his abuse, took responsibility for my contributions to the issues and gently pointed out that he is quite narcissistic. I told him I accept him with no expectations just the way he is and that I care greatly for the “real” person I caught glimpses of during our friendship. My offer to have an honest friendship in which he is free to actually be his real self has been met with silence. We were very close and I feel for the pain filled little boy I saw from time to time. I doubt I’ll ever hear from him again. He knows I will pray for the Lord to bless and heal his heart no matter what the outcome.

Dr. Lopez…great article! I have yet to see any like it.

Donna, please allow me to impart what I think. From experience, when you talk to a narcissist it will be difficult to convey your feelings about them because they can be so very defensive. Their “defense mechanism” is their persona or false facade. Once this has been threatened it may be difficult to bring them to see what you see or at least accept part of what you say. Two individuals who married into my family exhibited narcissistic characteristics and from what I saw, they were always threatened when someone would point out something they did wrong, or the way they did something. In other words, some if not most narcissists are defensive and could care less about your feelings. Some are even abusive.

My grandfather is a Pastor and has worked with many “narcissistic-like” personalities and despite his spirituality and kindliness, there appears to be a wall that prevents them from receiving his help.

I must admit, even as a student of psychology, I’m not all too sure of a special way to deal with these types of people. Maybe there just isn’t one.

Tamra & Dr. Sam-

Thank you both for your imput. How very sad and what a waste. He was always defensive-even to a degree that was comical. It got to be exhausting placating his temper tantrums. He will always be in my heart and it is comforting to know that God is bigger and stronger than G is, even though I would imagine he would disagree. Thank you again. Time to mourn now…

You belief that narcissists are curable is highly optimistic.

My mother is a narcissist and it would take a stick of dynamite to change her.

Wendy Aron, author of Hide & Seek: How I Laughed at Depression,Conquered My Fears and Found Happines
wendyaron.com

Dr. Sam, Could you please comment on the association between sociopaths and narcissists? Seems like the few (thankfully) sociopaths I have known are, by necesssity, narcissists as well, but not all narcissists seem to be sociopaths. Thanks!

Reading this made me feel awful… I am much of what you described, even at my advancing age… although I’ve had a stable, loving marriage for over 40 years, with mostly happy, well adjusted children, who appear ok., emotionally. I’ve never stopped trying to understand my childhood and traumas, that left such scars…in my mind, anyway. Is that ‘narcissistic’ ? I’ve just always wanted to understand why I felt as I did.. and reacted as I did…so defensively… I guess this explains it. It sounds so awful, though, when seen in print.. or probably if heard, out-loud. Is there hope, even at my age, to ‘get over myself’ ?
I think I would crumble under psychiatric counselling, now……. wouldn’t want to dig it all up, now, that I’ve come so far, by myself and with loving family & friends. I’ve always just had serious talks with myself and have been able to get past my own little pity parties…. will I be ok .. or am I just fooling myself and being over confident ?

Thanks for listening…
Lee

I’m a bit suspicious that you seem to have known so many narcissists amongst friends and colleagues! Maybe you try to get more intimae with these people than they desire, trying to get them to reveal their weaknesses, so that they then avoid you because you’re infringing their personal boundaries. If I had a friend or colleague who was a psychotherapist and he started probing me about my weaknesses, I’d pretty quickly go off him.

a really insightful article and gives me answers to the behavoir of person i love very much but who i might have to give up because the closer we get the more he seems to get scared though he presents to me a picture of complete control and coolness. Though recently there was a bit of a breakthrough when he opened up but it was to ‘correct’ his image rather than to confide in someone who cares. I wonder though how can one help such a person open up without them feeling that their ‘dignity’ is at stake?

Dr Sam

This article ahs made me realise that my ex husband, sister and a close friend are narcissists! My sister in law, was always so jealous of my acheivements, friends and ability to be liked by so many that she made my life a complete misery. I do hope that you are right in saying that something devastating that happens to them will make them realise the pain I went through. I had to leave the marriage as my ex husband always took her side. Now he is an ill man, and is trying hard to accept a unfulfilling relationship. Always trying to please his brother and wife. LOL

This is a very informative article. I have an ex-stepson who fits the category. He continually brags on himself, shows no responsibility, job-hops, and is manipulative. The world revolves around him, alone. All of the above behaviors are evident in his personality. He continues to display the behavior of a 9 year old, although he’s 34. He has been known to mock and tease my 2 1/2 yr old grandson just to see him cry. Actually, it’s a little sociopathic. (My grandson is being removed from the situation and has minimal contact with him).
As a crisis assessor, I come in contact with many substance abusers with this type personality. It’s sad but true…until they realize they have a problem and want help, there is not much we can do.

I’m starting to see, and also from personal experience with friends and others, that there is a very significant and subliminal piece of wisdom to understanding narcissists. Perhaps having pity on them will keep us from being hurt by them and also angered. I know its difficult, but I think this is wise. As Dr. Sam has stated, they are hurting and may very well be the victim of a deficient childhood. Most also really need to feel “good” about themselves,even if it is false, because of a deep void. Although it might be difficult to “feel sorry” or even have some sort of sympathy for these types of people, I think we should at least express empathy and then…walk away, especially if they are a hindrance to your life and the healthy state of your emotions/mind.

I’m sure we can all agree with Dr. Sam that relationships that embrace honesty and truth are the relationships most beneficial! In order for us to move past a narcissist, forgiving them (so that they won’t be bothersome to your conscience) and expressing understanding (i.e., empathy) of their “problem”, will certainly help us to eventually get over them!!!

What a stirring discussion!

I am so grateful for the article and the comments. My heart feels as if it’s breaking in million little pieces. I’ve been in a relationship (and living with)with a narcissist for almost two years. I’m an emotional and neurotic wreck now. I know I should get out but I love him. I’m a trained counsellor and always see the hurt and insecurity in him. For that reason I keep believing and hoping he’ll change. He can be soooo nice sometimes. I don’t think he’ll get help. He is 46 and God knows, difficult. I canonly but pray for him and me.

This article so clearly describes my son whom I have known is a narcissist. He has been diagnosed with it. I feel such deep guilt because I know it is my fault. I was a single parent raising him and did not always provide the best environment for him. He also is bi-polar and suffers from borderline personality disorder. Also, I am so sad and constantly worrying about his future and his being alone all the time. At least it brings some hope that you have seen other narcissists cured. Thanks for your great article.

This article was informative and helpful but did not specifically and authentically describe the emptiness that the narcissists have inside…that would account for the inability to share (what they don’t have), and the fact that they use and use up everyone and everything that comes in contact with them. These people are often in relationships (CO-dependent) with those who had narcissists as parents, siblings, or other important people in their developing years that caused them to be unable to control the situation and leave (due to age, money, etc.) or were as you said “obsessed” with the relationship. There is always a hope that the narcissist will change or that there is a wonderful person inside that the co dependent can see as having so much potential, but the development of that never comes to fruition. So the co-de is left with continuing to hope, realizing the limitations of the relationship and how it relates to their own deep wounds, and being able to decide to stay with boundaries/limitations or finally get out and get healthy. This has been a personal journey for me as I have been raised in an extremely narcissistic family, with both parents and both siblings, as well as aunts/uncles/cousins/friends, and even my husband of 14 years showing up in my life as narcissistic “TAKERS”. I thank God every day for the blessing of a Christian counselor in my life who specializes in working with patients who are traumatized by this type of persona, and has set me on a path of perception, recognition, and elimination of accepting this type of behavior from anyone because I certainly, as a Child of God, deserve to be respected, treated with dignity, and am entitled to a sense of peace and being unconditionally loved for who I am, not for what these people can gain from me. It has been a very long and hurtful journey but well worth the freedom found at the end when you finally find your own worth in yourself!

I have been living with one for years. Not necessarily an extreme. but a man who runs his life based on values, and principles of his grandparents. Everyone is measured by his yardstick. Needless to say, no one ever measures up. will never address these issues as distrusting of all psychologists.
thanks

I have been living with one for years. Not necessarily an extreme. but a man who runs his life based on values, and principles of his grandparents. Everyone is measured by his yardstick. Needless to say, no one ever measures up. will never address these issues as distrusting of all psychologists.
thanks

Hello to everyone,

I have been researching this disorder on and off for about 4 months now. I believe that my husband is one. We are now separated. He actually thinks that the world revolve around him. At first I thought that he was just a selfish lazy inconsiderate person not seeing the signs but that was not all. He loves when attention is on him and he definitely hates the fact that I am on to him on everything that he does. He often fake sick, lie about simple things, paranoid, thinks that just because he is struggling “everyone has to help him” he gets mad when family and friends put their family before him or “no one understands his situation” or he thinks that I “always” say negative things to him. He always twist what I tell him to his advantage and I cant even call my husband my best friend because majority of the things that I tell him in secret he reminds me of it when we argue. He also thinks that every argument is the “end of the world”. He is very emotionally and verbally abusive. If I never had thought that he was a narcissist I probably would have divorced him a long time ago. How do I get my husband to understand that he needs help, we went to counseling and he often shuts down thinking that the counselor is taking my side. This is the first time that I responded to the different sites I came across and please forgive my typos and grammar! I am desperate for help!

In my personal experience with my narcissist ex-husband, they appear to be “rational” and may even be in professions like computer programming. But they are NOT “logical” or “rational” in their behavior, choices or thinking. Anything BUT!!! My mistake, in fact, was trying to reason with him, which failed spectacularlly and made him WORSE in his tactics. I think they like logic and reason as a hobby - outside of themselves; they gravitate to it because it is predictable and safe and has rules, but the law unto themselves is different.

Thanks Dr. Sam,
Thank you for responding. Yes, he is a character; he does play the victim role better than anything. This last ultimatum was very clear; I gave him until August 8 to achieve 2/3 of these goals, so that he can come home. 1.) Get a second job [the job that he has now 75% of it goes to child support and from previous relationship it also goes on insurance for everyone, so I figured he needs to help and not depend on my child support and my income from working, to survive. He has two habits smoking and he likes to spend money always putting himself first! 2.) Go to counseling by himself as I said before we tried to go together but he always think that I disagree with everything that he says and that our counselors look down on him. And 3.) Anger Management to help teach him coping ways so that he knows that everyone gets angry its how you control it is the problem.
He finally supposingly goes to counseling (to make a long story short) I asked what the counselor name was and he “Blows up!” never answering my question saying “ you don’t trust me, I thought that we was trying to build our relationship back by trusting” Now I responded saying All I did was ask a question he says he forgot “the mans name”. To this day he still has not given me a name. On all receipts of Counselors and psychiatrists there is always a name on the receipt! If he did go which of course I don’t believe he only accomplished 1/3.
I’m still confused is he a narcissist or just a lazy selfish person that doesn’t “really” care about anyone but his self? I have no problem about being alone and I know that I can do it I am just tired of going on this emotional roller coaster and I had my anxiety level under control until I started catching him in lies so all the hard work that I have accomplished is starting to whither away because of this roller coaster ride he is taking me on! Thanks for your response again. I’m desperate I just need to know.

Sharonda

Thanks Doc,
I just wanted some reassurance to make sure that I wasn’t crazy. We are already seperated and have been this “last go round” since May due to the problems with lying, not learning that he has to be the one to rise up and take control of his life and not society being responsible of his.Basically be a MAN and stop depending on others. I did it by myself for 10 yrs with 5 kids I can do it again with 5+1 that we share together.
Thanks again,
sharonda

WOW! It is so very very comforting to find a forum where I can talk about what’s going on with my life … I have somehow managed to end up in love with a narcissist .. one thing that my narcissist does, constantly, is say he is going to do something and then doesnt do it .. and he is always late … at least 2 hours without fail…he also seems to be a bit of a hypo chondriac … takes comfort in going to the doctor, chiro, laser eye stuff, sleep clinic, back problems, ear nose throat … I wish I would somehow bring up to him the impact he is having on my life and situation, but I feel guilty because I’m still choosing to stay involved with him. He is very proper and actually doesn’t know how to relax and have fun…he is a self made millionaire and I think he is addicted to money .. weve been dating a year and I know he gets upset when I put my own needs before his .. several times I have broken up with him or threatened to, and each time, once his back is to teh wall, he apologizes over and over and over again .. pages and pages of emails and promises … is it true that the only way I will ever get him to do what he promises is to threaten him? How does that make him feel? I’m smart enough to not tell him that I’m on to him.. am truly compassionate and more long suffering than any one should be … we do not live together because I have children and DO NOT want them exposed to him day after day … he’s not a good example of a fine human being and yet I continue to stay with him, because i do pity him … many times I have felt trapped .. perhaps you could give me some hints on how to either decide to get out or to somehow tell him what I see in him and give him the ultimatum…I live near Toronto Ontario and could use the name of a good therapist who is used to handling this type of thing for me..

all i can say, is that i can feel for all of you above. i came across your site here. i’ve recently experienced some of the most bizarre experiences with a woman that i work with. when we first met at work, the conversation, etc., took off so fast. i would say, that i guess we got to know each other really well. i can honestly say, that within a span of 4-5 months, i felt as if i was in love with her. i really liked her - we could talk about anything, she would tell me her problems (about work, and also personal problems). she revealed to me, i would say, some of her most personal thoughts and feelings about everything and everyone. she would tell me about what kind of man she would like to go out with, she would tell me about a man that she said she was in love with, she would tell me about men that she slept with, and many other things, i think you all can get the idea. so i figured that we were close, right? she liked me, right? we were good friends, right? she could tell me anything, right? we spoke a few times on the phone, she gave me her number, and told me ‘now we can always be connected.’ she seemed so excited w/ my friendship, that after a month of working together, she told me, ‘hey, let’s go to dinner.’ sort of caught me off guard, but i said ‘heck ya’. she is so beautiful. so i was all excited. so the dinner is coming up the next week, and she cancels, using what seemed to be i guess a ligitmate excuse. so we go to lunch, and have a really bad time that day. i apologize, and she says ‘it doesn’t matter.’ while we were eating, she said ‘i see a lot of pain in your eyes.’ so to make a longer story long, we had a dispute about 7 months into our ‘interactions.’ i hinted and told her that i really liked her. i was so hooked. she is so beautiful. she indicated that she liked the other guy, and had no interest in me, only as friends, but yet, she told me everything about who she wanted to marry, go out with, how she wanted a man to understand her, how nobody can understand her because she is ’special,’ and all she wants to be is understood, etc. at this point, i would just like to make it known, that i work with this woman. so i back off. then i get a phone call. she pours her heart out to me, how i am so great, how she admires me, how she wants to come over to my apartment, how we should do this, we should do that, how i’ve got my degree, how she is just this, or she is just that, how the guy she likes is really not that good looking. she said she loves me like a brother (i should have known). so, for the next 4 months we are getting along great. we talked to each other about who we should be going out with, how she should go out with this guy, how i should go out with this girl, etc. so i kept asking her to perhaps, go to lunch w/ me or hang out, we were getting along so good. we would make plans, and then she would cancel. sometimes, she would just forget we made plans. or sometimes we would make plans, and then she would cancel them, 5-10 minutes later, saying she had to go home. then, in May, i told her, that it seems like she wants to ‘hang out with me’ but then at times, i got confused, because she would then indicate that ’she didn’t want to hang out w/ me.’ now comes the 1st blow-up. she now told me, that ‘if you understood me just as friendship, then you wouldn’t be so upset. i will not let you in, and that frustrates and bothers you.’ so, now she is not talking to me. i try to mend things; i send her emails, i call her… no response. so i get all depresed, crying and everything, because we were good friends i thought. so a month and a half has passed w/o conversation, and now she breaks out. no apologies from her, she just starts talking to me again. i am still walking on eggshells, trying to mend what i thought was a friendship? so for the next months, until December, supposedly we are friends again. Then she asked me for a favor, i remember…
i sort of refused, then, the 2nd blow-up. she got really angry (i guess) at me in December, and did not talk to me until May of the next year. No contact w/ me at all, she would ignore me, etc. i cried and cried and tried to figure out what was going on, trying to mend everything w/ her, but she would not budge and ignore me. so comes May - she had a problem on her computer. i helped her with it. then we started talking again, and worked our way up to January. no apologies again, just started talking, i must say all of the effort was on my behalf that we spoke again. wow i am losing track… so she got a promotion. so again, she seemed like she was just ticked off at me for soemthing. so i ask her, ‘are you upset w/ me?’ wrong thing to ask, i could have done better at the time, but who knows. she says ‘no,’ but now, she also told me that ‘i think that you and i should just keep our distance, and be professional…’ so i cry again and again and again. i try to mend fences, eggshells for about a month or two. she would not talk to me. she ignored me. so finally, on her birthday, i give her a card. no apologies are exchanged, now everything is back to normal. she told me that on Valentine’s Day, we could not talk ‘because we were mad at each other.’ but, i was never mad at her, she was just so unapproachable that i was kind of scared. but whatever. So this is February this happened. so the next 9 months, we talk, then she recently gets a promotion. true i have not gone out of my way to speak to her as much as i did, for my own sanity, but i still tried to keep contact w/ her at work, going to her office and talking, writing emails, etc. we even sent emails at home too. now i get the cold shoulder, and she has basically stopped talking to me again. she ignores me. she acts like she is not giving the ’silent treatment,’ but she really is. you know how you can tell that… we used to talk about everything, i considered her my best friend, she said we were good friends, she cancelled so many plans we had, i was frustrated, etc. so, what does anyone think? i guess i am just crazy. i see her in the hallway, she walks right by me sometimes w/o even saying ‘hello,’ sometimes she says ‘hi’ and ‘bye.’ this is so complicated. i don’t know how another human being can treat another person like this, i am confused. she even always told me that she was frustrated w/ her relationship with her troubled boyfriend, because he didn’t tell her what was really bothering him - he gave her the silent treatment, so why is she doing that to me? this hurts my feelings, but i am dealing with it, reading spiritual books and self-esteem books, keeping everything to myself for now, so i don’t drive everyone else crazy. i feel drained around her, i feel as if she used me and just left me like you would leave an old computer, that she cares, but doesn’t care at the same time. so what is going on? so i guess it is over. i guess i am just crazy. but anyways, just thought i’d let everyone know, that i can really feel for them on this blog. so i am getting better believe it or not through my own therapies, and one day my goal is just to use this as a learning experience and do the ‘moving forward’ thing. i’ve realized through this experience, that i’ve got some issues (such as ‘love addiction’ and ‘co-dependency’ and ’self-esteem’ issues.) thanks everyone, and stay positive and if anyone else has had a run-in with someone of this nature, things will get better for you after it is over. lastly, i look forward to the day that i won’t give this a second thought - all i can say, is that maybe we should all think that way.

Hi,

Great article. Unfortunately I found my name written all over that article. How does one cure themselves? I find it very difficult…

hello. this is Andy. wow i agree with everything you said. well, it might sound really odd, but the only form of body contact that she ever let me do was one time, she asked me to touch/press on her stomach, so i did. she said that she was bloated, and she wanted me to see how hard her stomach was. i thought at the time it was weird/odd request, but i did it anyways, because i was so into her and infatuated. is that normal for a woman you work with to ask her to touch her stomach? who knows, i’m not blaming just stating a fact… so thankfully, that is the only time i really have ever touched her in the last 3 years (thank god) (besides hugging her once, i did manage to hug her, but when i did, it seemed kind of ‘cold’ or whatever you would like to call it, like emotionally meaningless… not sure, not like a real hug, like a zombie, if you know what i mean?) i have to admit that i do think of that once in a while, hope that small incident didn’t do that accelerating the addiction. you are right, i am so addicted, and trying to break it every day. i am going to buy those books you recommended too. it is weird because i know that she has been mean to me, did the abusing thing, has given me only small amounts of emotional satisfaction in return (just to keep me hooked i suppose). she sort of teased me. but yet i kept running back to her, so that is my fault i must admit, but i couldn’t stop, i thought i was ‘in love’, if that makes any sense, and looking for any amount of love, like you were telling me above. i was the perfect prey for such an incident, but i am going to change after this. but whatever, i do know what went on and could still go on if i let it… so i have done some research, and bought a lot of self-esteem books, spiritual books, and also personal awareness books, addiction books, and i think they have really helped. some of the books i’ve bought are ’self-esteem by Matthew McKay PHD and Patrick Fanning,’ ‘Addiction and Recovery for Dummies,’ A New Earth’ by Eckhart Tolle, ‘The Power of Now’ by Eckhart Tolle, ‘Celebrate Yourself’ esteem book by Dorothy Briggs, ‘How to Break Your Addiction to a Person’ by Howard Halpern, ‘I Need Your Love - Is That True’ by Byron Katie, ‘Loving What Is’ by Byron Katie, and also ‘Addiction to Love’ by Susan Peabody (which really really helped) and some other books of the same nature. i even went as far to buy a Bi-Polar workbook, cz i thought i was going bi-polar. and the coolest thing i’ve done, is i bought this book for an addiction to smoking, called ‘teach yourself stop smoking’. what i have done, is take every word in the book, and reversing them towards this incident, sort of using her name or using the word ‘addiction’, and it is helping… i’m trying to create an image of her as a big lethal cigarette, and smoking her is bad. if that makes any sense. it’s a longshot, but i think that anything helps. i just can’t believe all this ’self therapy’ i have been reading to help me get over this, wow… i feel as if i’m about 50 - 60% better nowadays, (with a long ways to go). i do really have to get this fixed, because i hear her voice and see her at work. it seems as though everywhere i look, (and not to get too psychological) there are those psychological ‘anchors’ everywhere in the whole building, but i am working on erasing those from my memory, and creating new ‘anchors’ where those once were, with any image there but her, and it is sloooowly helping, but this whole process takes time i realize. when i wrote last night i was really bothered. but i do know that i allowed myself to be pulled into this, so it is not all her fault, but i just couldn’t stop the spiral, for whatever reason. but i would like to say that after reading some about narcassistic behavior, this whole situation kind of fits the mold for that, unfortunately. that is why i said that i feel for everyone on this blog/website, because i know how confusing it can be on the receiving end of this type of behaviour, it hurts to the core and right through the heart (of the chosen victim), and all we can do is just try to recover emotionally as best we can, put ourselves back together again after such an experience, and whatever situation we happen to be in, move forward, because there is hope. i figure after i can get out of this situation, i can survive through anything, and i give encouragement to the other readers not to give up, no matter how much your mind can feel twisted and warped after such an encounter. thanks for your input too, it really helped to re-enforce what i have been trying to reverse, or get better from, from my past - i know that some of it too came from my parents, but unfortunately not too loving at times, and also 2 sisters, and i do not speak to them anymore. and I agree, my Dad basically gave me a bunch of ‘bad’ anchors to sit within my psyche, and i am working on erasing those too. what u said about my Mom makes sense too. i mean, i’ve seen other children raised in high ’self-esteem’ environments, and i can see the difference in their behavior, how they react differently in certain situations. but i do know that i do not ever want this woman to continue to keep me in her psychological web, and i am going to get out out it, and i hope that others that read this can learn from my mistakes with these individuals, and do not get involved with them or get seduced by their charm (they are good, the best actually). others can get out too it just takes a lot of determination so don’t give up. i recommend to help anyone get over this, to buy those two books that Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D. recommended, and any or a lot of self-esteem books to help build your self-esteem to the max, it will help you can fight off the ‘guilty’ feelings that you may encounter, and also any other spiritual books, addiction books, etc., just to help calm your nerves throughout the withdrawal process. i would try those kind of books to help you get over the situation, or even therapy w/ a good therapist who can get to the core problem and really help. so i recommend all of those books i mentioned above too, they have helped, along with the books that Samuel Lopez De Victoria, Ph.D. has recommeded. everything helps. i just want everyone to know, that i do not hate her for whatever actions, i do really believe that these are survival insticts for these types of people (but they sure take it to the extreme), and like i said i allowed myself to fall into it, but at the same time, and in time, i will forgive but not forget. one of life’s lessons i guess. hope this helps anyone.

Dr. Sam:

I am very intrigued about what you said about the spiritual connection. My N was a 16 month marriage right out of college. He dumped me flat for a teen-ager. That was 30 years ago. He would contact me from time to time over the years, and it always left me a wreck. He had three other wives, all dumped him, and truly died alone and broke.
But since he died almost two years ago, I have had dreams and contact from him. Things like the radio turning on by itself. Lights dimming when I asked him to prove he was there. There’s a radio game where he tells me to go to a station, and the song is something about apologizing, realizing what you had once it was gone, waiting for me.
Um, sooooo — I do believe in life after death. I’ve never had anything like this happen before. Gads, do you suppose an N is still an N after death? Even now, can you wonder if he’s being honest? I began praying for him when I found out he had died, knowing his after-life path would be problematic, he was so heartless to so many. So I don’t know whether, now, to cut off this contact or to think my prayers are working.

Your thoughts?

Diagnostic manuals for mental disorders acknowledge that there is significant overlap between the narcissistic personality type and other personality disorders, especially with the borderline type. I would question whether you, Dr. Sam, got the diagnosis right in every case you mention or comment upon. Like another respondant, I am concerned about the number of people whom you appear to have attracted with this type of disorder. It has been said that if you only have a hammer you see everything as a nail. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, even for psychologists.

There is increasing evidence that personality disorders have a genetic basis which is merely “triggered” by environmental events. Unless you are aware of the physiological components of the condition you will spend a lot of time “treating” the wrong things. A Google search will turn up relevant up-to-date information in this area. I would recommend doing this.

Dr. Sam:

Thank you so much for your respectful answer. I quite understand — and I’m so relieved you didn’t advise me that I’m a nutcase.

http://amazingforums.com/forum2/LIBRAN0/170.html

So I got triggeres this past two days and weny back to reading blogs to keep my head above water . I realozed you were giving feedback and thought -I would see what you thought of this person. R*ther than rewriting I posted the link above. (D)

Dr. Lopez — you wrote:

…….With all due respect, I personally believe that when a woman and a man have unprotected sexual intimacy then a connection happens that goes beyond just body fluids co-mingling (please excuse my attempt to avoid being explicit) …….

……When “the two become one” then there is an obsession state that becomes initiated, almost like an addiction but at a psyche level
Since your man is not willing to get healthy, for you to get healthy, you must leave him. The problem is that you have this psychical (sp?) dependence on him. In other words, you have an addiction to this person. To break it you must break that union but you must go to the inception memory and surrender it to your Higher Power,

Can you elaborate on this? By inception memory do you mean the first time you had sex with the person you want to disconnect/deaddict from. And what do you mean by surrender? Do you simply mean to pray for it to be released from you? I’m not a faith-based person but neither am an aethiest. Any advice for an agnostic?

Oops (regarding the above post,) I just realized your last name is De Victora. I stand corrected. Sorry.

Um, yeah. You might want to remember that psychology has a tendency to diagnose anything out of the ordinary as a personality disorder, although, considering that you’re a psychologist yourself, I doubt you will.

Who is to say that narcissists aren’t “healthy” people? Maybe they’re happy being the way they are. Maybe this is really just another socially unacceptable, but healthy coping mechanism. (It’s not any worse than smoking, is it?) If that’s the case, who has the right to say anything against it? And as for people who were narcissistic but who claim to be glad to have “overcome” that challenge - well, how can you be sure that those are their real views, and that they aren’t just some product of social conditioning? (i.e. thinking, like most of us do, that anything out of the ordinary is scary and/or harmful.) How do we know society’s views on narcissists are true? Can we ever know?

I’m sorry, I’m more than a little skeptical of psychology as a science, having been hounded by psychologists for most of my life. Anyway, those are the questions I’d like you to address. How do you know that any of your “diagnoses” are accurate, or that any “disorder” is really a “disorder”? And how can you prove that psychology is a science and not just another tool that society uses to create stigmas about people who are different?

Thank you.

Hi, I have been researching for some months now and you are the first that I have seen to say there is hope for a malignant narcissist or one with npd. Why do you believe this can happen. I am getting ready to divorce my husband of 26 years. We have been struggling to make it for 2 years almost. I could never understand why no matter what he said it wouldn’t satisfy me. Than I started to do research and came to realize that my husband is afflicted. I see a person without sincerety pretending that God has shown him the light but sometimes the things he says show me that he is still making justifications for everything he did. I am constantly being criticized by him and feel that if we were to get back together he would eventually try to manipulate me into believeing that all the problems were my fault. He has had numerous one ngiht stands. Slept with my friend of 28 years, his best friends wife, taken vacations to where he is from and looked up old teenage sweethearts to have sex with. I wouldn’t be suprised if it numbered over a hundred woman. He has had 2 dui but it could have been hundreds he just wasn’t caught. He has had two fist fights with his son. He has been arrested over 6 times.
I will not go on and on but one thing that was my saving grace is a career buying and selling antiques eventually I had them everywhere in our house and he complained to everyone through the years about it. Another narcistic trait. I now realize that I was trying to fill the whole in my life with something. I no longer do that. But I never cheated and was a good wife. But he complains about everything I did and says he had the right to complain about my collecting even as he carried on many sexual infidelities unknown to me.
I still am quite curious why you think there is hope. I am not looking for some sort of saving grace I think my husband is evil puts on his Angel face and goes out into the world and lies about me to everyone.

Dear Dr. Sam and Everyone here:

I found this site tonight because a friend of 35 years just told me that I was a narcissist. She told me to look it up, so I did. Thanks to all of you for the wonderful posts that I just read.

I had read about 10 sites before I landed here. I have some of the qualities (who doesn’t?) of a narcissist, but I don’t lie. In fact, I am honest to a fault, many times to my detriment. As I read the opening paragraphs, something you said about getting your PhD and losing a friend really struck a chord with me.

At age 50, 5 years ago, I finally got my BA. That is when 3 of my long time friends basically turned on me. The same people that used to call me a “professional student” and laughed about it, now were saying that, “College doesn’t make you smarter.” None of these three friends went to college, but that made no difference to me at all. This was a personal thing for me to achieve. I guess you could call it a goal.

Two semesters before I graduated, my husband cheated on me for the second time and I kicked him out. We were together 18 years and it broke my heart. It took all of my strength to handle the divorce and finish college so I could get a good job to support myself. I know it took an emotional toll on me, but I had a Psychologist that I had seen previously in my life give me what I term a “tune up.” She assured me that I had a good grip on my life and that the sadness that I felt would eventually go away. So far, 6 years later, I still feel the loss, not as much, but it is still there.

The people that I thought were my good friends seemed to sense my “open sore” and went into attack mode…today being the last of the 3 friends. I have tried so hard to maintain the friendships because they were long term and after today’s research I fear that I have enabled their attacks. Does this make me a narcissist? I am becoming more isolated, by choice, because I am so tired of arguing and sticking up for myself. I have made new friends since my divorce, but there is not the same connection that you have with friends of many years. I’m lonely, but I keep trying. And, I do still have some 30+ year friends left, along with a ton of family, so all is not hopeless!

I know this is long, I’m sorry. I just am so confused right now. I would welcome any suggestions or ideas or anything!

Thanks much,
Sue

Dear Dr. Sam:

Thank you very much for your insightful reply. I will get the books you recommend. Depending on how I do with these books will determine whether I contact you on your website. I will do whatever it takes to re-establish my “boundaries.”

Thanks again, Sue

Dear Dr. Sam,

I just stumbled across your blog today and have read everybit of it. My fiance (lose term) I believe has some if not all of the signs of this behavior you speak of.
I came into this relationship so ready to be loved, so trusting, so naive and believing. It makes me sick to think how innocent I was. I have been lied to and deceived numerous times. He seems to fit the description there. In the beginning he made me believe he had so many things in common with me, he said all the right things, I thought he was everything I had dreamed. I am the ever hopeful co-dependant I guess. I still think back to how he made me feel and believe that he has it in him to be so wonderful. He isn’t anymore though, maybe moments. He is fantastic with my children when they are around, but to me he complains because he makes ridiculous rules for them to follow and of course they aren’t perfect. He really believes that he is. He can do anything better than anyone. He is convinced that if he isn’t here (we live together) that we are all disrepectful of his wishes; the lights, the dishes - there can be no dishes in the sink or the drainrack, the garage door - needs to be shut immediately after entering the house, no one can forget these things, oh and there is so much more! Everytime we “master” a rule, another rule is imposed, until I feel that there is just no possible pleasing this man. You would think that by listening to him we are the biggest pigs and the most inconsiderate bunch of people. My children are both at the top of their classes are extrememly respectful and I get compliments all the time on their behavior, so what he says is simply not true! However, I begin to doubt my worth, it is beyond hard listening to someone slam me and what I don’t do on a daily basis. Like most people he can be the sweetest and most loving person at times, but I am beginning to see the light and I think I am falling out of love with him. I want to be in a healthy relationship and don’t see the point about wasting my life feeling angry over minor things such as dishes and my in-ability to do what he wants when he wants it. I try, that is what I tell him. I try. And I also have found it best to simply agree with what he says since I do not like arguing, unfortunately this may only fuel him. I haven’t yet found a way to avoid being yelled at or criticised. I do my best to please him, nothing works. Confronting him is even worse. Thank you for the post, it is nice to feel that I am not crazy.

Dear Dr. Sam,

Thank you for this article. In reading your article on narcissism, I can easily identify that my ex husband was a narcissist by every definition, as I had already suspected and learned through counseling. However, I am stuggling to determine whether my current boyfriend of 1 year may also be a narcissist or if it is some other dysfunction. He is 35 years old, never married and has lived at home with his mother his entire life. He tells me that the reason he has not left home is because his father died when he was 13 (over 20 years ago) and since then he has felt like he needs to “take care” of his mom. His mom is only 64 and has no physical limitations except that she doesnt drive becuase her eye sight is not great. She does treat him like a child in many ways though, always telling him what to do and making him feel bad for not doing this or that. His brother is a couple years older went to college and married and seems to be much more independent of his mom and doesnt have the “guilt” associated with leaving home. Also my BF seems to not have much motivation for becoming independent, moving out, being sucessful financially, etc. He is a very gererous caring person and seems to have a close relationship with God which is the thing I love about him the most. The reason I am questioning the narcisim is 1) becuase you mention that the person becomes “frozen in childhood” becuase of a trauma which I truly believe is the case 2) becuase I have a fear of falling for the same type of person, as seems to be the case in alot of people. He does get defensive if I say anything negative about his choice to remain at home with his mom, but he is open to talking about feelings usually, but does usually try to make it out to where I am wrong and he is right. He is also very jealous and we have had numerous arguments about me spending time with friends and “making him feel like he is not priority”.

Do you think he might be a narcisit or is it something else going on related to his childhood trauma?

Thanks!

Hi, I just wanted to thank you for your kind response to my entry above. I believe you have a great grasp of the dynamics of NPD I call it what it is Malignant narcissism. I think that you like others in the medical profession might be hesitant to address the ill will and intent to do harm that some of these people have or the evil as Dr Peck talked about. Thank you for also not telling me only a professional should diagnose a person with NPD. I see other people kind of guessing about relationships with people they believe might have NPD. I have 26 years in a relationship so I am qualified to diagnose my husband I lived it. Also those on the web telling people to only let a qualified person diagnose a person with NPD is rediculous. For one they are not very likely to be in a situation to get diagnosed. Also if they see a therapist or mental health professional who isn’t familiar or knowledgable they will manipulate lie and fool them and will remain undiagnosed. Narcissistic personality disorder is a very serious and severe condition and I do not think people should use for a fits all diagnose of any person you are having difficulties and has some of the traits. I hope you do some more articles becuase I think this problem is flying under the radar of national attention. Really the only info is on the internet. Thanks again.

Hi…

Thank you for your shares. My family history has many N’s, my ex, Father, Grandfather. My Mother sufferd from chronic depression and drug/alcohol addiction. I have a fear that I am N also, I saw a therapist she said I was not N, she said an N would never think they were N, she said I had a passive reactive personality, I asked her what that was she said it means that I do what other people want me to do. It’s funny I don’t see myself that way. I do have a tendency to run away from conflict, job hop, very shy around men, and keep to myself.

In other words this dynamic is an attachment issue where a person’s love tank was not filled by their mother foremost (less involving the father).

My question for Dr. Sam is in the above statement are you speaking of an attachment disorder? I took an online attachment test and it said I have a “secure” attachment, but I often wondered if that was correct, I get so frustrated with my Mom, and have always felt like I was a thorn in her side, my Dad mainly was cold, distant and absent. Is it possible to attach properly to a person with a personality disorder?

Thanks…Lynn

I found this article and the various responses very interesting both personally and professionally. I am a practicing psychotherapist also (LPC and LMFT). Not many narcissists come in by themselves or willingly, but I will see them from time to time as part of a couple. As has been stated, they often come up with a reason to decide counseling isn’t helping them and that they don’t need to come back. Oftentimes, either eventually or from the beginning, I am working with the girlfriend/wife or something similar to that. This is often about helping that person see what they’re dealing with and face the reality that they will have to make changes if the partner is not willing to do their own work. There is a book out called “How to Avoid Marrying a Jerk.” One of the things in the definition of jerk is that person not being willing to take responsibility for their own actions or change patterns of behavior or relating that are destructive.

I find it interesting that, with narcissism, as with so many other things, it all goes back to childhood trauma and attachment issues. These “emotional children” take their issues into adulthood and act and react based on them. So much of this is about avoiding closeness and feeling unsafe. My guess is that narcissism is just one of several responses someone can take on. Avoidant personalities are just another way of coping with the same initial trauma and so on. As one responder said, we can feel sad for that wounded child inside the person, catch glimpses of who/what they could be in unguarded moments, and feel compassion. At the same time, whatever the issue, if that person isn’t willing to own it and take responsibility and is doing things that are emotionally hurtful or physically harmful to others, limits have to be set. Sometimes, setting these limits is what forces the person to confront themselves. Other times, they’ll just move on to the next person they can suck dry and blame everyone else for their problems.

I really like Susan Johnson’s work on adult attachments in romantic relationships. For people who truly want to experience safety in adult relationships, emotion focussed couples therapy can be a greatthing. She has written a book for couples called “Hold Me Tight” also. The individual has to be at a certain place of readiness, of course. I love the Cloude and Townsend books also. We all have to have a certain amount of concern for self and that is not a bad thing. Some of the respondents also are responsible for children so that it is not just about two adults.

Good stuff but hard stuff.

Hi, My exhusband is Narcissist and I am Co-dependent. I lived for years thinking things were my fault but now that I am divorced an a friend of his girlfriend, she is seeing what I saw in him and now she is dealing with the lies for no reason and wondering if he is cheating on her. Now I am finding out that my daughter is the same way. Everything I give her is never good enough and then wants more. She is telling me everything is my fault and never satisfied with anything and wants me to feel sorry for her, for her self gain. I am so glad that I am aware of her behavior and also glad that I got out of the abusive marriage I was in, but now I just don’t know what to do with my 14 yr old daughter. I just don’t know how to handle her. Somedays she is fine but then she explodes into this person I can’t deal with. Help. Thanks

My brother is sinking deep into his narcissism. At 33, he’s dating an anorexic teenager. He tells people that they might be married in 3 or 5 years, but there is no engagement forthcoming. He’s not talking to me, yet he has turned a whole church against me by saying that I’ve abandoned him. All I did was respond to his meanness and controlling behavior by drawing a boundary around myself and my children. I have grieved for months about what a liar he is. My dad gets mad at him for lies, but then kind of forgets about it. My sister was recently in town. She emailed my brother to call her. He never did. The last time he saw her was at our mother’s funeral, 4 years ago. We’re wondering what the excuse will be. It will be something like, “I didn’t get the email for weeks.” There is always confusion when dealing with him. Looking back, I realize that my brother doesn’t really care about anyone. He’s never been in love, not really. He smirks when we expressed concern for his safety. He really enjoys that people put him in the center. What really scares me is that he thinks he is God’s favorite. Women at the church buy him clothes and fawn all over him like he’s King David. My brother is a talented singer, but I’ve never seen women treat other single men this way. I think my brother emits a charisma, or neediness that makes people think he is very spiritual. He once argued with me for 9 hours straight to let him drive my car. He was hissing through his teeth. I don’t think he respects women at all. I’m older and have been married for 17 years. My husband is furious with my brother’s bad behavior. It’s been hard to let go of relationships in order to keep my sanity. It’s harder still to know that people think I’m mean because they think my brother is the greatest.

Dr Sam,
WOW! Thank you! What a clarifying light your article directs on the subject of the Extreme Narcissist. I’ve read all the posts following your article and have found an enormous, emotional, personal liberation that’s contained in your advice as well as the illuminating comments of the posts.

In my experience with this subject this summer I had a complete falling out with a close, female friend at work. At first I thought that it would blow over and soon realized there was something seriously emotionally wrong with her. I knew she came from great dysfunction but still didn’t appear damaged. WRONG! she just managed to cover it well. Her deep seated issues have stunted her emotionally and kept her there at the about the same time line as her original trauma.

I was baffled at our falling out at first, she didn’t respond to my emails, texts, letter, or even my direct apology. A cold, stony, silence settled over what once seemed like a warm, mutually agreeable, friendship (there was no physical intimacy). However we did share a closeness that I thought meant a great deal to her. Apparently not, I was used, then discarded and dismissed. This chasm occurred in June of this year and she still has not responded to any of the gestures I presented. So even though I wanted to resolve this issue, realizing it couldn’t be fixed (she wouldn’t allow herself because of her low self-worth and even lower self-esteem), I left with my dignity since her silence sent a very clear message. I’ve ceased all communication with her. Although I have thought about printing your article and putting it on her desk or mailing it to her anonymously since I do want to prick her conscience about a behavioral pattern that I now realize she has repeated with others in her life over and over for years.

I have broken my addiction to her by realizing that while she is a physically beautiful woman and can appear very charming and extroverted, at her core in her present condition she is really a wounded child in a woman body. She is a taker and has what appears to be absolutely zero empathy towards the feelings of others. From your description of the N, I now realize we were in a toxic relationship and breaking all communication with her was the best approach for me. We still work in the same building and when I have to go by her work area she can’t look at me her eyes just flutter I think out of embarrassment. She knows in her heart of hearts I was one of the best friends she’s ever had but her pride and self absorption prevent her from seeing anything else. In those instances when our paths do cross she can’t face me and will turn around to avoid me, more examples of her childish mentality.

Originally I was furious with her now I pity her and am disappointed that the great times together we shared are now just memories. When the situation first surfaced I immediately went to work on myself to try and neutralize the ambiguity of her actions and I’m thrilled I didn’t just stuff my feelings and walk around in a daze wondering about the “WHY?” of what she had done to me. In my estimation if our friendship was as one-sided as it’s turned out to be then she never really was a friend just a user and a taker. I hope she does eventually encounter a situation that rocks her to her core (but not out of spite) and then perhaps at that point she can begin real healing. Till then she’s still just looking in the mirror and just fooling herself that she’s “all that” as a sad, weak, little defense.

I want to add to Cam’s comment from 10/1 because it sounds exactly like my son’s dad. He left me when I was 3 mths pregnant and refused to acknowledge the birth and now blames me for getting pregnant (I am now happily married). Now 5 years later I wanted to make some simple chnages and it has become it all out war with my character being torn to shreds by lie after lie after lie. He also lives with his mother who is a psychotherapist and pastor and basically feeds his supply.

I have realized that I need to not engage him but it is hard. My poor little son is exposed to this. When we go to the court mandated counseling he lies to the doctor, and we cant really say anything about the other person, it is more about learning to communicate. Hopefully she sees thru it.

How do you co parent with someone who is constantly lying, twisting things around and basically doesn’t have a heart? Who makes it all about them and that you are lesser of a person than they are- they are more important, do more at work are busier, etc etc

The courts and lawyers have not really seen thru it yet.

He has had trauma- dad dying when he was 11, losing a job, he is now successful, brother dying in front of his mom and him in a bad accident a few years ago, that brother was a drug addict, lives with a sister who is was/is an addict/alcoholic and God know what else. They have all been diagnosed with at least one mental illness, if you want to call it that.

He will of course not admit to anything because he says I am the one who is trying to control. He blames others for eveything, and gets mad when you hold him accountable for soemthing he said he would do. He will use charm and humor to con his way out of things and basically you really do not know how to deal with him because you do not really know how he will be?? I really think he is one tragedy away from cracking ut he may in reality get worse!

HELP!

Dr. Sam, Thanks for sharing your work and the kind responses to others. In trying to self diagnose my actions it seems NPD hits a lot of nailheads! I know everyone can’t fit in the same box but have you found other patients that fully REALIZE their lack self esteem and insecurity? The arrogance, defensiveness, and other symptoms are real clues, and looking back on past relationships with lovers, friends and family seem to support the dx, but I also noted many readers indicate the self centeredness of their significant others. Have other patients gone to the other extremes trying to prove love or is it only to compensate for their own insecurity? Lastly, I read that some meds prescribed for certain symptoms will actually aggrevate NPD. Does this match your expirience? Thanks

Dr. Sam

Am I dealing with a Narcissist. Second marriage for him - he left her a few times , had another baby when he went back and left permanently when the second child was an infant. He was 27. WE got together, lived together 4 yrs and then married. So 18 yrs married -22 altogether for us. He cheated on me the first time with a married neighbor next door. That was ongoing for a few yrs before discovered. He would never sell our home so we have stayed here all this time.
Second affair was 2003 AND I found out 2005 when she called me. This person was promised a lot of stuff by him and he lied to her about a lot. Told her he was leaving - well he did leave after I found out he never ended this affair. Gone 6 months and came back to work things out. Now in April of 2008 he left again and I find out he is back with the neighbor next door - we have 2 children and they are extremely hurt, confused and angry over his behaviors.

ALSO, He has hidden money he has made in his own business and made investments in his name only. I work and make a decent salary so my income made it easier for him to do this.

ALSO, he bought ahouse around the corner and never finished building the new one in 5 years -now he is living in it even thoiugh he promised it ti our family. Originally, he told everyone but me it was for him so he could leave. But he presented it to me and the kids as our new start.

Broken promises of all kinds…he bought a shore house two and promised the kids we would enjoy it on the weekends-he hardly ever showed up.

He tried to join a notorious motorcycle gang

Lies about everything…even when it doesn’t matter or is a big deal

ALWAYS LATE FOR EVERYTHING

Doesn’t seem to understand our feelings…gets a blank look or tells us we shouldn’t feel that way

Uses others to get what he wants

Fantasizes abnout being rich

Has his own busibess , is building another one but we are in DEBT like crazy. I ran credit reports when he left -obviously his success is built on debt he never wanted me to know about.

He has used friends for money and I am afraid they will get hurt

He has hardly any relationship with his mother -really can’t stand her

He likes to show off his stuff to others

He is 50 acting like a teenager

Has vision this neighbor is his IDEAL love
Sex was good but like a performance - no tenderness - NO KISSING!!!

So - is he a Narcissist? Will he do the same to her?

I was a good wife and mother but it was like I could never get inside him _ yet I loved him - the little injured boy that he seemed to be - I was out to prove he was worthy and so was I - but now it is like I am dead.

I also believe he never stopped contact with her for the last 10 years and that he made sure she would be available when he left in April and filed for divorce. Isn’t it unusual for them to leave???

MY HEART IS BROKEN and my children……

Thanks to all for your time and responses. I would suspect it takes some type of life crisis to cause a EN to delve into self analysis deeply enough to recognize these character flaws. I know that’s how it worked for me. I was researching social anxiety and depression when I stumbled onto this dx which seems to address many of my issues. Am I correct in thinking there can be overlay of other symtoms or conditions on top of EN? From Dr Ray’s response maybe these can be treated independently? A complete cure would be great but even learning to be one of those fake “nice guy” EN’s beats being the “jerk” kind! Thanks again, j

Hi Dr. Sam, you said:

Thank you for your valuable comments, Dr. John!

Just in case you weren’t joking, I am not a doctor, just a “know-it-all” who’s never wrong about anything lol. I do have one pt. though and I need to get him in shape pretty quickly.

While doing a self inventory to deal with a life change “Dr. John” dx., social anxiety, probably general too; mild to moderate depression, probaly both general as well as situational.

It was during researching these that I learned there was a thing called Narcissistic Personality which seems to explain a lot. The problem is these traits have been honed over so many years it will take too long to undo (if possible) or learn the coping skills needed hence my questions regarding drug therapy for some of the symptoms. Kind of a “fake it till you make it” patch.

I guess you know you are being “used” but I do (really!) appreciate your sharing your time and knowledge. Thanks again for caring about all of us! j

Dr Sam,
Thank you so much for your reply. Is there any chance that a divorce and all that goes with it will have any effect on him seeking help? It is in the courts as we speak and he seems so confident this is what he wants. That this old relationship is his answer.

Also, my 15 yr old daughter has now been ignoring him because of his behaviors over the years - and especially now with his affair in all of our faces. She rides the school bus and sees the girlfriends van at his house. She is in counseling but at this time does not visit and barely speaks to him. He goes to the bus stop to see her but that is even rejected by her. He feels that as long as he doesn’t try to put them in HER direct company it is OK. But we all have to look at her right in our back yard.
My son , on the other hand, while he is hurt and angry , does choose to go for overnight visitation. He is very torn by his conflicting feelings and he is only 10. ANd now his father seeks him out to an extreme and I am worried about his influence on my son.
And how does this make my daughter feel that her father chases her brother like crazy and cannot sit and face her and try to heal their relationship?

Am I asking for the impossible? Since narcissists can’t be intimate , what does this do to their relationships with their children?The kids have commented the last few years as they have gotten older how selfish he is and only into what he wants.

I have explained to my 15 yr old some of what his issue is - but my son is too young.

It seems I can’t do anything to PROTECT my children’s emotional well -being -except for loving them, encouraging and they are in counseling.

I am also worried about HOW MUCH visitation the court will give him -permanently.

He says he wants to co-parent the children with a split week visitation. This is my worst fear. He was never involved before -honestly he never spent even 5 weekends a year at home with the kids. Rarely picked them up at school. Didn’t go to Dr visits. So why now???? Now he has become INTRUSIVE.
I could NEVER depend on him before and I am certainly not going to now.

Dr Sam, Thanks for your response. I tried to be patient since we EN’s can try and dominate any situation. When you get kicked out of an Assertiveness Training Class for being too assertive you know you have problems lol.

Your tx modality makes perfect sense to me. I have always felt my social problems were the result of defensive reactions to insecurity and self esteem issues rooted in childhood but with many more years behind me than I have left:

I wonder if any of the SSRI’s would at least mask enough of the sx of the self esteem isssues to allow conscious reactions to “perseived” threats over purely emotional responses ie: defensiveness/arrogance/etc. I can easily see them possibly exacerbating the situation too but wondered if it was worth a try?

One thing I would offer for your book (and to some of the victims in your audience) is that some EN’s do have a conscience and feel true guilt everyday for the pain we have caused others. Thanks again for your help, I wish your practice was closer. J

Dr. Sam,

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my question. You wrote:

I think that a person can attach to another person with a personality disorder but that would look dysfunctional in some way and would have emotional issues and deficits, in my humble opinion.

You got that right…..My Mom is pleased when I am compliant…displeased when I am assertive….As I work toward greater assertivness is feels strange, like I am being mean, but with time I know it will get better and feel more normal….Thank you again, Lynn

Dr. Sam…

I just wanted to say I find such comfort in re-reading your article over and over again, each time I absord it more, you wrote:

At the core of extreme narcissism is egotistical preoccupation with self, personal preferences, aspirations, needs, success, and how he/she is perceived by others.

I am slowly discovering that being raised by this personality type has twisted my thinking in such a way that I think I am suppose to always please others, it’s like blinking to me. What I have noticed with myself is that if/when I fail pleasing I feel hatred toward myself, I was raised to beleive my job was to serve others not myself. I was raised by selfish people and it turned me into a selfless person, I do not like it, is sucks and keeps me in no where land. Thank you, Lynn

I am a reforming N. My original hurt inflicted over a long period by mother and uncle. cannot receive or give love. distrustful of others. miserable. was bullied for looking different. also co-dep. my opinion is that there is no hope except in eternity where God can use time to His/Our advantage.

Perry,

I came to this sight because of this same issue.

My parents have both been self loving narsisitic for as long as I knew them.
I grew up trying to make my “father” happy and always hurting because I realized that I was practically the only person in the whole world that he seemed to hate. He was charming in public and was very good with other people’s children, but not me and my brother.
To top it all off I was always bullied in school and even mistreated by teachers, so I consequently developed health problems by the age of eight. I wasn’t even ugly so what was the problem(?)….I thought.

He especially took his anger out on me, the oldest who was expected to clean all the time.

Well, he ran around on my mother with other woman and had a child by one.Opening her wounds of her childhood molestation even more.

As an adult, I noticed she turned on me when I got married and b/c a vicious liar and slanderer and isolated me from my siblings. The only friends I really had.

I moved far away from them and have been ignoring them, trying to live a normal Christian life, they hated that decision.
Begging me not to move further

They began spreading rumors about my husband and me and stalking us to get our attention. When he was finally talked to by us, he began quoting scriptures and calling my husband names. This has happened many times over since I’ve been married.

This made me so angry I began yelling and shaking, I also began to have flashbacks, which I have never had before.
I began to cry for the first time about how truly wicked and evil they are. I told them that I have officially cut off all ties with them and to never expect to see their grandchildren in this lifetime.

It has taken many, many years for me to come to this point.

To top it all off, they are ministers of a Baptist church.

I woke up at night angry, wanting revenge and not being able to get sleep, which is what led me here.

I decided to get on my knees often and ask God help me surrender the pain and unforgiveness. The key word is OFTEN. I need to stay in the perfection of God’s presence in order to heal.

I know that both my parents have been deeply wounded, but as a mother I can’t relate to frequent (seldom maybe, and I dont like those either) blows, daily to my children.

My “Parents” can’t see the truth and are blinded and quite frankly…..just plain stupid.

I pray for their souls.

Lihn E.

p.s. I even changed my name. From a boys name to a girls since this drama.

Lynn,

By the way that’s my legal name. I have decided to change the spelling of the first and completely change my middle name b/c my selfish mother named me(A GIRL) Lynn Charles, after my father…. even her family begged her not to do it and she even used the name for my brother 11 years later.

You may have to just get mean with your mother b/c she just won’t get the picture other wise. I can’t believe how tolerant I was for over 18 years with mine and got N-O-W-W-H-E-R-E. It’s a waste of time to reason with a narcissist, I personally believe that they are driven by and evil force that they lose control of at some point.

Being mean is really being firm, but please keep your cool. Years of pinned up anger rolling out at once is not good for your health or your spirit.

Lihn

Thanks Dr.Samuel,

The children where the one’s that I protected their image for.

When my children wittnessed them stalking us they no longer wanted anything to do with them.

They are so sick they even persued continuing a relationship with their other son in law who visited nude bars and was a drugs but had a successful carreer.

When my sister tried to leave the marriage, they coached her into going back and staying (b/c he had a nice home)

We have been married for years and have been faithfull to each other and never ever got this treatment.

My poor siblings are to afraid to contact me and their eight out of only nine nieces and newphews in the “family”
Wack job pastors

Thanks again

Lihn

Dr Sam,

Can you read back, please, and offer any answer to my letter of October 25th, 2008.

I have been looking to your answer each day.

Thanks so much and God Bless all who deal with this problem!!!

Tess,

I feel for your daughter b/c this is what I’ve gone through and still have many, many years later concerning my “father”

Often your daughter will feel as though she’s the only one going through this. Especially, looking at father daughter images that are everywhere including the media.

Pray that your daughter will realize that she’s not the only one going through this. While this may not make her feel better at least she will know that she’s not alone.

I don’t think that evil parents really get it, until something trumatic happens to them, thus causing them to wake up. And even the child just simply looses interest after a while. Just like Dr.Sam said something drastic usually wakes up a narcissist.

Unfortunately by then it’s sometimes too late.

God is not sleep and the whole while he is working on your daughter and picking her out for a special reason to be someone He has elevated for His purpose, there is no telling what lesson your poor husband will have waiting for him down the road. Believe me, somethin’s waiting to wake hime up.

Psalms37

Lihn

I come from a bad childhood. I am a codependent love addict and have been in 3 relationships with men, all being narcissists. The first was for 7 yrs, he wasn’t as bad as the following two. The second one turned out to be a psychopath, felon, and registered sex offender. I have had to get a restraining order against him for stalking me. And the most recent is the cop who ‘rescued’ me from the stalker. What he put me through, although it was the shortest relationship, was the most painful experience yet.

Being a love addict, I always fantasized about this ‘hero’ who would rescue me. The cop fit the bill. He swooped in and told me everything I ever wanted to hear: “I’ve spent my whole life looking for you,” “I can’t believe you like me,” “I’m not gonna do anything to screw this up,” “I’m gonna show you that good men exist,” “I’m not gonna hurt you,” “I haven’t felt like this since high school,” etc… As soon as we became physically intimate, his walls came up and his fear of intimacy took over. He shut me out and no matter how hard I tried (and being a codependent love addict, believe me I TRIED) he would not let me back in. He has lied to me so many times I’ve lost count (”I’m gonna call you,” “I’m gonna read that book, I promise” (the book I gave him about being emotionally unavailable), “I’m gonna reply to that email you sent me,” “We’re gonna spend the weekend together,” “I’m not gonna go back to that [Russian Mail Order Bride] website,” (he also turned out to be a sex addict), “I didn’t go back on that website” (when it clearly shows his ‘last login date’) etc.

He demonstrates everything you mentioned. He is 53 years old yet acts like a child complete with temper tantrums. Anytime I attempt to have a heart to heart with him, a normal adult conversation that adults in relationships would have, he will RUN. He’ll hang up on me, drive off, leave me outside and go in the house and slam the door on me, etc. If I corner him inside the house, where there is no escape, and gently try to have a conversation that involves feelings, then he will act like a trapped animal. He becomes verbally abusive, yells at me, distracts himself by cleaning, rearranging household items, attempting to change the subject, tries to kick me out of the house, etc. At no point do I raise my voice or anything. This is his reaction to a normal everyday question concerning our “relationship”.

He has isolated himself for many years. I was his first relationship in 6 yrs. He’s described his prior 2 relationships which he behaved the exact same way in. But he does not want to accept his faults and it’s all about HIM HIM HIM. He will start yelling about all the things that have happened to him, listing things he feels victimized over (nothing to do with us). He repeats this again and again to me every time I try to talk to him. It has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

Last time I saw him, 2 weeks ago, I was crying on his porch (after he refused to come to the door while I was out there for an hour, after I drove an hour to see him). When he finally came out, he began yelling at me with his list of HIS problems again. He yelled for 10-15 min, then told me to “have a safe trip” and left me outside crying while he went inside to bed. I hadn’t said one single word the entire time.

This has been the most painful situation I’ve ever gone through. After trying to figure out what makes this one so much more painful, I’ve come to the conclusion that it was the ‘hero’ factor. I wanted so bad to bring out the him I saw in the beginning, the guy who would bring me flowers all the time and tell me the sweetest things I’ve ever heard and was so kind and sensitive. I have tried everything to help him. I’ve spent the past 4 months reading everything I could about codependency, love addicts/avoidants, fear of intimacy, emotional unavailability, etc. I buy one book after another and read every day. He clearly is too consumed w/ feeling sorry for himself (for the irresponsible decisions he’s made which have lead to predictably bad outcomes) and has no desire to change. He won’t even open the books I’ve bought him that could help him see the light. I do fear that he will be one of those who die lonely, as you’ve said. I feel sorry for him but I’ve had to walk away. (…And he hasn’t even attempted to get in touch with me since the crying on the porch incident.)

Also, I appear to have a lot in common with Dean above. My emails, calls, and text messages were ignored by the cop. He would even delete them without reading. (I thought about sending him this article but am pretty certain he wouldn’t read it.) He has plenty of excuses for it all, “was busy”, “phone was broken,” “lost phone,” “phone was upstairs while I was downstairs,” etc (he has 2 cell phones and a home phone by the way). His excuses never end. And they are so childish and unbelievable that I’m amazed he could expect anyone to believe such nonsense.

He doesn’t even THINK about the consequences that his actions will have on someone. It doesn’t even occur to him that by him telling me he wanted to marry me and was in love with me and all, and then going from that to completely ignoring me literally overnight like the flip of a switch, would cause me trauma. All he thinks about is himself.

And also, like Dean above, I work in the same building with the cop and see him all the time which makes breaking the addiction to him extra difficult.

Nina,
I sympathise so much with you. My ex was the same. The wanting to marry you? Can you see it was a hook? The promise was empty - as soon as you stop towing the line or stand up for yourself, he vanished right? Or worse still, he would tell you how flawed you were and how could anyone want to be with you.

The vanishing is just another way of controlling. If he isn’t talking, he doesn’t have to address his behaviour. Not that he will ever think it’s unreasonable.

Been there totally. In the end, I woke up, walked away and shut the door - more for out unborn baby than me but it worked none the same.

I am still angry for falling for this bullshit in the first place!

Narcissists are insecure and they create insecurity to stop you seeing it. You were fine before he came along and screwed with your head, you can sort your life out and get it on a much brighter track. You don’t need him.

Hang on in there - it gets better

After extensive study of NPD and having first hand experience and knowledge of numerous NPD’s for over 60 years of my life I realize that they are masters of deception MOD’s as I refer to them. The sum total of all my experience with them has left me with this one simple piece of wisdom “What wasn’t a lie, wasn’t the truth.”

Lihn,

Thank you so much for your kind words towards my daughter. She is strong and brilliant -but I am so afraid of the emotional wounds he has created. And my son still cries for him at night - he is going to be 10 on New Years Eve and he wants to know why daddy left such a great family and a good wife. I pray my son grows up to be an honorable man. I also fear what I read about genetics in regards to NPD. I do question God often - of why we had to go through this. I loved this man deeply but within the last 5 years my life has been hell. I honestly thought his first affair 15 years ago was a mistake. But now I know better - he has been living a separate life for a very long time. I don’t deserve this - even his family agrees - but they aren’t exactly giving him a heart to heart sit down either. This is so bizarre- all the debt, he took over the new house that was for the kids and left us here next to the neighbor-his first affair and now he is with her again.
Right in front of the kids!!!! And I have to face him next week on custody mediation - please pray for us. He looks like the great guy who put a house around the corner to be close to his kids - how sick!!!! I am so afraid. Please pray that God opens his eyes ……..and heart..

Tess,

You are right for wanting God to open his eyes. I’m sure He has been trying to. All I can say is that when you and your children heal and maybe even get far away from him, which you may not be ready to do but should really consider, you will look back down the road and find an extremely good reason why it had to be this way.

It doesn’t feel good now, but trouble doesn’t last always. It will one day pass and the peace you exchanged for this misery of being around him will be blissfull.

He’s already left so hoping for a change of heart means what? He’s not safe and according to new testament scripture has unclean practices. This puts everyone at risk and isn’t worth the trouble.
Your love for him could be love but possibly co-dependent.

Make your self well and stay in prayer before God. It’s hard and seems stupid. The bible says IN EVERYTHING GIVE THANKS FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD CONCERNING YOU (AND)ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR THE GOOD OF THEM WHO LOVE GOD AND ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.

Remember we live according to His purpose, stay strong and this will get better for you and your children.

Lihn,

Thank you for your kind words. I cannot get away because we have children .And now he wants joint custody a week at a time. He has so far managed to make me look like the crazy one -as warned by everyone. I am scared and afraid for the kids. I fear the courts will not see him for who he is -so far the custody mediator did not want to hear of his history .

Not a good sign….

My husband is an extreme narcissist and I don’t know what to do anymore. He is unique in that so far as I know he never ever steps over the line of legality or abuse. Yet he will string me along, convincing me that he’s really repentant, in all ways acts and looks repentant only to turn around and completely disconnect. He was raised in a crazy family. They are all passive aggressive narcissists. There was rampant incest among siblings and cousins. My husband was among the youngest. Yet he says very little happened to him. He is very angry at his father who yelled, screamed, and swore at him but even more angry at his mother who stands by and does nothing no matter what his father did. He treats me like I am like them. He doesn’t think there are people who are actually decent and nice and thinks that his family is normal. He gives up with any little difficulty and expects me to run everything, be responsible for everything. For the first 8 years of marriage I did that. I took care of every thing from initiated sex (I was supposed to figure out when he wanted it), to doing the bills, to taking care of the kids & homeschool, the business bills and invoices, etc. About 4 years ago I reached a point in my life where I had been educated enough to know that this was not right and that there was nothing wrong with me to be so tired from all this. I slowly dumped things on him and he was angry at me for doing it but he now does some of them. But when it comes to a relationship he simply will not stay in a close relationship for longer than a month. And that only happened once. That also did not include sex. As soon as the subject of sex came into it he freaked out. I’m just tired of this. I feel like I’ve wasted 12 years of my life first catering to him and now combating him. It’s like raising a fourth kid and he’s by far the worst behaved of the lot. He is exhausting me. He won’t get help. The one time he did go to a pastor counselor to get help he managed to convince the pastor that everything was my fault and that he was a poor helpless little boy who needed a dad. This in turn destroyed the friendship I had with the pastor’s wife as she then also believed I was being bad even though she had been in a friendship with me for 4 years. He is good, really good at looking like the nicest possible man in the world. His anger is never overt, always covert so there is never anything I can really put a finger on. He never does anything so that I could actually be justified in throwing him out but I’m getting to the point where I want to anyway, even though it is completely contrary to my beliefs. I would like to believe he can change, or will change but I’m just tired of this.

Jennie,

I could have written this myself as you can see from my posts above. You don’t mention infidelity or affairs -always a possibility.
I am 52, with him 22 years -18 married. He has now filed for divorce - I never thought it would come to this. I think we could be married to the same man except mine is very sexual -too much so…You are right about the house, I work full time and make a good salary, taking care of the kids, cook full meal EVERY night, clean the kitchen , dishes, laundry , bills , and YES - even his business bills while he would lay on the bed. He has gone from loving me (IDEALISING) to never having loved me (DEVALUING) me many times over the years. And it has gotten worse with age and the affairs never stopped. Our children are not enough motivation for him to leave the neighbor alone right now- he’s recycling her. Anyway, I pray you research and although I DO NOT believe in divorce, I can only tell you from my heart where I am now. Two kids 10 & 15, 52 yrs old, he is $1,000,000.00 in debt and my state is 50/50, 3 affairs -one of the women twice now - or maybe more, women calling my house, he used other people’s money for years like it is his, 4 motorcycles, built a new house for 6 years and he is in it now - so much for the kids, EVERYONE loves him, only a few have caught on, his family has basically deserted me because I told them the diagnosis, my son cries for his family, my daughter doesn’t barely talk to him because of the affair being right in her face, right now he gives me weekly money HE thinks is enough, re-mortgaged our house which would have been paid off MAy 2008-now we owe 2X what we paid for it-and guess who is paying it?? He took the money for his business but I have to pay it cause he left us here in the house, and to top it off i have been diagnosed with HPV virus. Think long and hard, PREPARE before you do anything-particularly financially, be prepared for the covert angry to become overt - it is amazing how cruel he is to me now - as long as no one is listening - and be prepared for him to become father of the year if you leave. I could go on but we are limited here…I just found out why my marriage didn’t work no matter what I did 7 months ago and I still have to remind myself.
Any if you love who you thought he was it is even more difficult - as for me. I wanted my family to survive - still do….but it would take a miracle from God to fix him now. It has definitely worsened with age - he is 50.
God Bless you and your kids- you are in for a rough ride….hope this helped as others have helped me….research and get into counseling , please and of course -pray.

My mother has NPD. A good therapist taught me how to handle her and how to be an adult. Nonetheless, I still am the sole support for my elderly mother and have worked hard to fight any guilt when I have to tell her ‘No!” Many times I would love to walk away from her, but she is my mother. I do take breaks as needed when she crosses the boundaries I have set. She doesn’t like it when I am away from her. She also uses her health to get me. I stopped accompanying her to the ER. They just call when she needs a ride home. It is hard work, but I have learned to cope. I often think she would be such a wonderful case for someone who wanted to study NPD. She is a classic. For years I thought it was just because she was Sicilian! So good to read others on this site. thanks Dr.

Thank you for your article, Dr. Sam. I am extremely confused and heartbroken after recently ending my relationship with my boyfriend of 17 months. I left because I felt like I didn’t matter to him. I hope I did the right thing. Our first 10 months together were wonderful with him talking about marriage and pushing for moving in together. He was kind, generous, attentive, available, fun, ambitious, optimistic, hardworking, and we had a great sex life. Everything changed dramatically when we moved in together.

Below is a list of some of some of the incidents, comments, and interactions that went on. Was I dealing with a narcissist? I feel like I am going crazy! I want so badly to understand what was going on.

After dating for six months or so, I noticed a collection of three large collage style frames lying against the side of his dresser (not displayed). I asked him if I could see them and he said I could. They included many pictures of himself and his ex-wife (who he divorced in 2003 and has no children with). I asked him if he would please take those pictures out of the frames and put them in the box with the others in the closet. He gave me a dirty look and said, “You need to be more secure with yourself!” I told him that this was not about me being more secure with myself, but about me feeling that keeping these pictures around was disrespectful to me and to our relationship. I told him that I am sensitive to this sort of thing. He told me again that I needed to be more secure with myself and then said, “We are done having this conversation!” He never did take the pictures out of the frames. As a matter of fact, after 10 months of dating, when I was helping him move into my house, he handed the pictures to me to load into the car to move into my house. I once again told him that this was hurtful to me and that even more hurtful to me was the fact that I told him that something was upsetting to me and he did not seem to care. You see, this is not so much about the pictures as it is about a complete lack of regard for my feelings.

From the moment he moved into my house, he became moody, withdrawn, inattentive, neglectful, uncommunicative, and had very little interest in sex. I asked him many times if something was wrong. He told me everything was fine, but he did not act like things were fine. He would spend much of his time “working” (reading political news online, playing Solitaire, and watching movies). He would almost never come to bed with me.

At one point, I tried to discuss our sex life with him. We suddenly went from having sex at least several times per week to having sex 2-3 times per month to 0-1 times per month over the last seven months of the relationship. I told him that I loved him and loved having sex with him and that I really missed it. I told him that I really cared about our relationship. I told him that I wasn’t sure what was going on between us, but that I wanted to talk about it and figure it out and get back on track. His response was, “I don’t think this is a problem.” I told him that I did and that I was part of the relationship, too. He then said, “If you think this is a problem, then you fix it. We don’t need to talk about our problems. This is not something you fix by talking about it. I am done having this conversation.”

Throughout the next seven months our sex life only got worse. I tried to discuss it with him a few more times and these are the types of responses I got:

“This isn’t a problem.”
“I don’t want to talk about this.”
“You reject me.” (Note: I did not reject him.)
“The problem is that you go to bed too early.” (Note: I changed my work hours and started going to bed later, but it didn’t matter.)
“If you want to get my attention, order some lingerie from Victoria’s Secret, and come out into the living room wearing it if I’m watching TV. That will get my attention.”

We got into a fight which resulted in him moving out after two months of living together (and one year of dating), telling me that he was miserable living in my house (even though he previously told me everything was fine) because it was too far from the city. Mind you, he knew where my house was before he moved in and he was the one who INSISTED on living together before marriage. My house is 18 miles from the center of downtown. He works from home, so he does not have to commute, but he said that he doesn’t want to drive so far to go see his friends for lunch or to go out downtown. He leased an apartment on his own downtown and then asked me to move into it. I did and my house sat vacant while I paid the mortgage.

Also, he began a new job at the beginning of the year (he’s an attorney). For the first 3 months he did almost no work, despite the fact that he had plenty to do. He continued
to fall behind on his work thoughout the year and had to give some of it away to another attorney. When I broke up with him, he was four months behind on a project. He just wouldn’t do his work. I don’t know why. Depression?

He was very overweight at 5′11″ and 250 - 260 lbs. I suspect this was a cause of a lot of his unhappiness. He worked out, but he overate. He is a compulsive eater.

He refused to brush his teeth before going to bed (he is 32 years old). When I brought this up he told me that he brushed his teeth once a day and that was it! I told him that this bothered me and he didn’t not care or change it.

He had a bad habit of not listening when someone else was talking, and of cutting people off when they were talking.

He liked to talk about himself a lot.

He took very little interest in me, my feelings, wants, needs, and goals.

A couple of times when I didn’t feel well, he said, “Sucks for you.”

When I would pay him compliments, he would say, “I know.”

He had lots of friends because everyone was his friend from the moment he met them.

He constantly has to invite others to join us on dates. He seems to prefer that over being alone with me.

When he was out with friends he acted like he was the most happy, confident guy in the world, yet at home he acted like he was miserable.

He ignored me frequently when I would talk to him and then when I would repeat myself he would say either, “I didn’t hear you” or “I was thinking about a response.”

He frequently ignored me when I would get home from work. He would tune me out spending hours and hours most evenings on the sofa or in his home office watching TV, playing Solitaire, and reading political news (often doing all 3 simultaneously).
He would set aside two “date nights” per week and then ignore me the rest of the time even though we lived together.

He would make vacation plans without concern for where I might like to go.

He would drive very aggressively and constantly make negative remarks about other drivers. When I would tell him his driving scared me, he didn’t care. He has almost caused a few accidents and he got us followed home one night.
W
hen I would tell him that something he said was hurtful to me (such as negative comments about my house or car), he would become very hostile and say, “I have opinions and I will express them! I am who I am and I’m not going to change! Too bad for you if you can’t accept me how I am! You need to not be so sensitive!”

When I got a new job or passed an exam, he gave me very little recognition.

He was never supportive of my educational or career goals, but very supportive of those of his friends and overly eager to help in any way.

He almost never apologized; instead he defended his position and accuses me of being too sensitive.

He almost never admits to being wrong.

He would say negative things to me such as:

“You’re thin, but you’re not very strong.”

“I’m not impressed with this car.” (Referring to my car)

“I would never live in a neighborhood like this.” (Referring to my house.)

“Those pants would go better with a red top.” (First thing said when I walked in the house.)

“Your ALMOST the most beautiful girl in the world.” (Is this a compliment?)

“I can’t commit to working on this relationship because I don’t know if it will work because I don’t know if YOU can change.”

“Our biggest problem is 100% your fault. You are 100% to blame for our biggest problem.”

“I’ll only go to couple’s counseling if you continue to see your therapist.” (I went to see a therapist as a result of the distress caused by this relationship.”

“Our problem is that YOU (fill in the blank).” The particular problem changes, but I’m always blamed. ALWAYS.

Anyway, I know I haven’t mentioned the good stuff about him, but does it matter if the bad is this bad? Did I do the right thing? The biggest reason I left is that I felt that he did not care about my feelings and needs whatsoever.

Dawn, I don’t know where to start. I have been married to a malignant narcissist for 24 years. I am now getting divorced. I know you say that there are good things about him well of course there are but the truth is he is a monstor and hides it behind his angel face mask for all to see. But you see the devil underneath. He really is no good. He absolutely will not change. There is not one good reason for him to. He has someone he can abuse and he likes doing it. He does purposefully. There is little if any hope for him. DO YOU WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE WITH THIS MISERABLE PERSON WHO WILL ONLY TREAT YOU WORSE AS THE YEARS GO BY! He will never give you what you need because he has chosen to be incabible of doing so. YOu need to go to the website http://www.melanietoniaevans.com. This will tell you everything you need to know. He is a evil person and will destroy you! Take care and stop trying to figure out what you already know. Being with someone who demeans you and doesn’t love you back is far worse than being along. Because you are not the probleme he is. YOU CAN’T HELP HIM SO DON’T EVEN TRY ANOTHER DAY IT IS FUTILE.

Dawn, I have to add this to what I wrote above. Part of the entrapment they set for you is to slowly destroy your self asteem as he has been doing. Before you know it you will no longer realize what is going on and will feel like you can’t possibly live without him. You will desperately try to win back the approval he once gave you. But he will never allow that to happen. The psychological damage that the lack of acknowledgement, approval from some one who claims to love you is quite significant. First off he ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT LOVE YOU but don’t take that personally he loves no one including himself. Please, please, please go to the website above. Print out the pages and read them over and over again till you understand what is happening.
Take care!
Catherine

Hi, Catherine,

Thank you so much for your advice. Being married for 24 years to a malignant narcissist must have been pure hell. I’m so sorry that you had to experience that. I’m glad you are getting yourself out of that situation. I hope you find much love and happiness in your life going forward. I spent much time on the website you recommended, http://www.melanietoniaevans.com, and I read everything I could find on it about narcissism. It was very enlightening and therapeutic. Thank you for the recommendation. Also, I just finished reading “The Verbally Abusive Man” by Patricia Evans. It too was very enlightening. My ex certainly fits the profile of the covert verbal abuser. I often wonder whether there is more to it though. Narcissism? Commitmentphobia? Basic selfishness? It’s all so confusing. His behavior was just so odd sometimes, even though much of the time he was kind and loving. It was like dating two different people. I finally had to leave because I felt like I just didn’t matter to him. That was not a good feeling to have. I don’t know that I’ll ever get the answers I want as far as what was going on. The hardest part for me has been dealing with all of the self-doubt and self-blame that I feel. I’m working with a therapist to get through it all.
Dawn

Dr. Sam,
Thank you for your response. I was especially interested in your anecdotal notion about matriarchal societies as Sicilian households are. Here it is the end Christmas Day and again, we had mama over and she so needed to be the center of attention. She even whined as a two year old when she didn’t get her way. I agree that part of her make up is cultural and can see very much how her NPD grew partly from that and from childhood trauma. I joke with friends-Thank goodness my mom married a white boy and thinned the blood out! Maybe that is part of the reason i could cope! Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays to all!

Dr. Samuel and Tina,

This is or was, my mail. My mother onced ridiculed my 10 year old daughter in front of all of us b/c she wanted to call her by her middle name instead of using her first name and said that her name sounded like syrup.

When me and my husband finally told her about it, before we were on my way back home, five hours away, she began to pretend that everything she was doing was in love. Then she said “I’m hard”. I said “stop being hard” she said, I’m hard to hate, pointing at my husband.

It’s my father’s fault, his overbearing years finally brought him low, now she wears the pants.

It’s truly sad to watch…..

Dr. Sam,

Thank you so very much for your response. I have been out of that toxic relationship for over a month now and I am working with a therapist to make sure that I never tolerate such terrible treatment again!

I still am not clear on whether I dealing with a narcissist, an abuser, or just a toddler.

I would like to share something that may help someone avoid making one of the many mistakes I made in that toxic relationship. I wasted much time reading relationship books about how to improve my relationship and I followed much of the advice. It didn’t work and here’s why: The types of books I was reading were written with the underlying assumption that the person you are in a relationship with actually seeks a mutually satisfying relationship; narcissists and other abusers want no such thing. Eventually, I came across the right type of books for my situation. Here are 3 that really helped to shed some light on my situation:

The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change? by Patricia Evans
Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man by Scott Wetzler
The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel

Dawn

Hi Dawn,
You dont have the extensive experience and have done 100’s of hours of research as I have but let me say in response to your letter to Dr Sam.
You don’t know if he is a narcissist, abuser of toddler. First of all, he is all of the above He is a “malignant” narcissist, which in turn means he is an abuser and is a child emotionally. The rest is from the core of malignant narcissism which Dr Sam calls “extreme” narcissism. But I don’t think that nearly describes how dangerous these people are. Nicole Brown Simpson is a prime example of a victim of one. Put her name into google and you will be able to find a letter she wrote to OJ. It pretty much runs like your letter except he was physically abusive. He was just on the extreme end of the malignancy road but all are dangerous!

Dr. Sam,
I believe that all of us have both codependent and narcissistic tendencies. I feel guilty when I discuss my wife vilifying me to others; because in doing so I think I am doing the same.

I am separated from wife and feel that I am now experiencing severe manipulative parent alienation. We have three children.

I now reside with my mother who I’d label a narcissist hence me marrying one. During the entire marriage they would either team up against me or make covert nasty remarks about each other in each ear.

I must own to physical abusive episodes on my part. I’m passive aggressive, impulsive and sensitive. My wife has hit me in the beginning but later found pushing my buttons was a more effective tool. My mother’s beatings though not often were severe.

I love my children dearly and I really think I am the more honest, fair, loving intelligent parent. However the transient period before I am even able to consider joint custody feels like damnation at times.

Feels a bit better to vent……..

I came across your site and am responding. After going through psychological abuse for several years by 2 family members, caused by 1 of then lying to the other about fiances, etc. and blameing me, I left the house, but too late. I doubt I’ll ever recover. Their must be NO contact, sad because I am not able to see my elderly mom. They know your weaknesses and will charm others to prey upon them also. 1 family member died, but not before asking me back for family holidays (refused-still too frightnend and in too much pain), then we made up and got things sorted out, but it was too late to change the paperwork that takes care of mom. My now ex friend is also a sociopath who very much knows better, and hides behind God words, continuing to do her worst. She knowingly continued to split the family, to take my place in it. It is amazeing to me that this town can be so charmed by such thieves and lyers. That family member and friend were made for each other, and both are dangerous as will do anything to cover what was done, and to this day continues with the abuse towards me. Another problem axcerbating my getting well is that the harrassment is extreme in this small southern town as am highly functioning with multiple degrees, which most decidely does not fit in with the stigma associated from what they learned in the 50’s, and they DO try hard to make me conform to their lesser expectations of the mentally ill. Do NOT move to this small southern town as you will NOT be welcomed in spite of the chamber of commerce. I am moving out of the state as soon as possible, to continue on the road to better health.

Dr. Sam:

I believe my ex-husband has this NPD. He talked me into dropping out of my PhD program and even had me throw away my framed Master’s Degree because it had my first husband’s last name on it. We have a 5 year old son who I believe is his supply. Also, my ex-husband’s mother appears to have this NPD and is now fighting for more visitation to get her “fix” from our son. After 3 years, my lawyer bills are at 15k and counting. My ex (and son’s father) continues to litigate for more visitation and variation of the custody terminology, so that he and his mother can manipulate the visitation to get their supply needs met. He already has 50% visitation and now wants to include his mother in it so if he is with new girlfriend (another of his supply sources), his mother can get her supply needs met with our son. I want to stop spending money on lawyers and start saving for our son’s college, not to mention my retirement and I am close to 40! I need prayers please. I just try to not make him angry and play the role of a highly respectable wife that is worthy of being one of his ex’es. That is my story. And our son’s story. Wish him luck. I hope he does not inherit this NPD like his Father who got it from his Mother….

Dear Dr Sam
I just want to say thank you! I wrote to you on the 6th of August 2008 about my narcissistic boyfriend and of course the answer was I should leave him. Well, thanks to your advice I did move out October last year. It was absolutley hell as I missed him so very much, but kept contact. This made it worse and I then tried the NO CONTACT rule. It worked. I am well on my way to emotional healing. Yes, it’s difficult financially on my own but the peace of mind makes it all worthwhile.
I would like to encourage others caught in such a relationship. It is the most difficult thing to get out of such a relationship, but once you are free, it’s WONDERFUL. Yes I still miss him some days and still feel sorry for him. But it is not my problem anymore. It is now in God’s hands.
Lots of love
Annie

I wrote a lengthy post but it did not appear on this page. Writing this test note to see if it appears. Thanks.

Hi,

Reading this page was amazing to me. I have been divorced for two years from someone I think is a Narcissist. We have two adopted children together and I really want their parents to be together. One of them has a significant attachment disorder and idolizes his dad. He started going to counseling with me a year before we divorced. The counselor at first told me to “emotionally detach” from him as cruel to myself and my boys from a former marriage. He spoils the little ones that are adopted from our marriage. It seems to be very important to them that the little ones love him over me. It caused such strife that the RAD son saw really no need to listen, interact, nor respect me in any way. He triangulated the situation and it always ended up with me being shamed and blamed by his dad in front of him. My ex spouse did this continually. I finally after 10 years of marriage and pleads from my teenagers gave him an ultimatum. I told him that 1) he could no longer yell at me in front of the kids, and 2) had to treat the older boys with the same respect as the younger children and I would stay with him. He laughed told me I was too “thin skinned” and step all over those boundaries the next four days. I made him move out the next week.

We were divorced a few months later. Abut 6 months later I started dating someone (another unhealthy choice)and during this time my ex husband acted like he hated me. At every interaction (no exaggeration) he cut me down in front of the little kids and electronically spied on me by looking up my on line bank accounts and breaking into email, and taking pictures of my house when I was gone. He is the type of person that is always the life of the party and he painted me to be a horrible person (though many of those same people saw him yell at me in public places). About 5 months ago I started seeing him. He started going to church, continued counseling, and I had seen some change in him. he will not tell anyone we are seeing each other, he blames me for his life being chaos when he was with me and tells me he doesn’t want the “hell” back, He throws the relationship I had in my face like it was adultery against him, and as I wanted to make the relationship work, he is considering going back to his friends he “trashed” me to to tell them he is considering giving me “a 2nd chance”. He is like a saint to his friends and he is personally mean to me and considers me my life to be a disaster so he doesn’t know if he can ever trust me. He actually admits that he cannot trust anyone. He says he is praying about it and if I have any feelings (like crying) when he says something not very nice and sometimes downright me, he tells me I am creating “drama” and he can’t take it anymore. I have always treated him respectfully and friends he disliked during marriage he is best friends with now and they do not talk to me anymore.

He makes accusations like I am controlling and cannot come up with an example. He says the boundries I set in the marriage at the end were just my justification to “give him the shaft”. He says he was only demeaning to the boys because I put our life in chaos and pushed his buttons all the time.

Being divorced is bad to him because he cuts me down in front of the kids which is so detrimental to them with their issues. Being with him is hard because he cuts me down to me and foicuses on every little thing I say as a way to punish me, but strangely, he does cut me down in front of the kids since we have been seeing each other. The kids have flourished with this as they cannot triangulate us anymore and they seem more secure. He admits that if we get back together, he will never cherish me because of the things I did like love another man and “create choas” in the relationship. he can’t think of any specific examples of that except “you know you never listened to me”.

I so want my children to flourish like they are and have a good relationship with me, but I am having a hard time with his treatment of me personally. He is also better now with the older boys, but they are 18 and 20 now.

He refuses to got o counseling as he believes I will use it against him.I am tied into knots over this whole situation.

Continued…

I wanted to add, that while I was in the other relationship he also had a relationship. His was “fine and he didn’t have any issues over it” but mine was bad and I have had to apologize over and over for it. Mine was not a good choice, but his was not either (she was a party girl that did some drugs). She actually did a lot of unhealthy things and they were going to move in together and she changed her mind a few days beforehand. She then didnt want to see him for 3 weeks and then “he” broke up with her. The issue is he has no problem with this woman like he does with me. I assume he was controlling to her and that was her withdrawal, but he just believes she was depressed over money issues and didn’t want to see him. She had an ex husband move in a month later, but he doesn’t see that as “against him”.

Why would he just pick on me as the villian? Why would this disorder only be against me or the children of my former marriage?

It feels like it is me.

The article is truly insightful. I’m glad to see an optimistic perspective on healing narcissism. I like to believe it can be cured.

All my life I’ve tried to understand myself, more specifically what is this persona I’ve designed and who’s the real me. I’ve just recently had a revelation while reading online descriptions of this disorder.

I’m a cerebral, moderate narcissist and I would need some advice.

What I perceive as problems are: the false self, the schizoid isolation, the difficulties in interpersonal relationships, the low self-esteem and virulent attacks of envy, the depression I tend to feel many times (and a few more, but I’m trying to avoid writing a novel).

Though I have a lot of the narcissistic traits, I’m far less monstrous than you’d expect. I have strong emotions, I deeply care about some persons and causes, I am quite moral, and I’m very self-aware. Sometimes I feel normal, vulnerable, sensitive, humble, real.. but a lot of the time I’m that other person: the bold, cold, indifferent persona that I created to protect myself from abuse.

This is why I hope I could heal myself. I’m still in my late teens. The cause of my disorder is the verbal and emotional abuse of my severely OCPD mother.

I know I must delete the fake self and invest in growing my true self, but I’m not sure where to begin.

How do I reach towards this true self? I feel her under my false self, but I don’t know how to bring her out, how to make her live, how to BE HER and stop being the other self. I am in touch with her and I know some things about her, but I find it hard to awaken her.

I truly want to be healed. I trust in the real me and I know that she’s better than any fake persona. I want her back, I want to be myself. I just don’t know how.

Great article!

Dr. Sam,

I believe I am/was married to a woman with Narcissistic personality disorder. Actually we are just now going through a separation/divorce. We have been married 15 years and I have seen symptoms from the very beginning. The most damaging were her fantasies of importance and relationships. She created a new persona and attempted to make friends and relationships based on this fantasy life. She did most of this by email with people living overseas who could not verify her stories. I found out about it by luck when she left her email logged in on my computer. It was totally bizarre. She made up stuff that was just total fabrication but was able to keep it up for months and months. I confronted her and she fessed up and said she would seek professional help. The therapist never diagnosed her with Narcissistic personality disorder but said it was most likely caused by effects of severe premenopause. I went along with that but I was skeptical. I gave her 1 year but I discovered she was still doing it. I think there is no cure for this problem.

I also found it interesting that some traumatic episode could trigger this problem. I think I know what that might have been in my wife’s case.

I feel sorry for her and still care about her but being married to her is/was killing me emotionally and physically. I could not sleep or eat well due to stress and depression. Now that we are about to separate, I am saddened but also relieved. I can now eat and sleep much better.

Anyway thanks for writing this article. It is very helpful and right on target in my opinion.

Regards,
Bill

Dr. Sam, I don’t think I need counseling. I don’t much trust therapists although I am sure they can be helpful to some people. I am doing fine now that I have decided to end this nightmare of a marriage. My problem was her. I am looking forward to my new life with new opportunities. I am considering all options like moving to a new area, new job, new friends, etc. Thanks for your advice but I believe best advice to someone linked to an extreme Narcissist is to simply break the link.

Regards,
Bill

Dear Yana, I am the guy who posted a couple days ago. I read your story all the way through. You sound like another sad victim of NPD. I have no idea if you husband is genuine or even if he was could he actually fix the problem. From my experience it seems incurable. My wife, I thought was sincere in attempting to change but simply, over time, could not. However, if I were you I would give him the benefit of the doubt and see how it goes. Miracles do happen. You can always leave him later if things go back to before. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

Regards,
Bill

Hi Dr. Sam!

I think my ex is an ‘N’, and as many have said here, I just noticed… when it all finally ended.

For what I know, due to a very serious economic situation, he was raised by his grandparents [dad’s side] for a few years during his childhood (from 2 to 5 years of age, so he was just a toddler when this happened). Later, he was taken back and returned to his parents, who after that, spoiled him rotten, even today at 33.

He has an older brother, who was raised by the parents, but I could always sense rivalry and resentment between them. He once said to me he didn’t deserve to be the one taken away. He also felt his brother was his mother’s favorite. I also suspect there is much more to this story…

Today, at 33, he is still supported by his parents. He blames the economic situation for not having a job. He lives in an apartment they (his parents) have at the beach, goes to the gym daily and refuses to get a job or have any responsibilities. He constantly lies about his achievements, in order to hide the fact he doesn’t have a job, but at the same time criticizes everyone and everything everybody else is doing. He also drinks and gambles and says he is his own HERO, because he is fooling everyone by living this “ideal” way of life! It is incredible… he is a textbook narcissist! He manipulates his parents, and they enable him.

He neglected me in many ways, and although he denied any infidelities, I now have serious doubts about that too. Too bad I invested so much energy and time with this major jerk! He took, and takes, everything he can get. Now I know he never loved me, he just loved the ‘energy’ I gave him.

We broke up about a year ago, but he kept me in his ‘radar’. I was the one who made the decision to end it, and of course, he also blamed me for leaving him. He even used facebook to keep track of me and my moves. I finally stopped talking to him about a month ago, and literally, deleted him from my life. I couldn’t take it any longer! He was so controlling, and a major manipulator.

After reading about N’s, now I know I made the right decision, but I also blame myself for being so naïve, and in some ways, emotionally dependent, cause I always came back to him. What else can I do to move on? What can I do to delete him from my head?

Seriously Dr. Sam, thank you very much for the information you posted here. At least this makes me realize I’m not crazy, and apparently, I’m not alone either.

Please receive warm greetings from San Juan, Puerto Rico.

Regards,

Celene

Dr. Sam, there is no doubt I have traits of narcissism and this has manifested in self destructive behavior. In a recent test I took my narcissim was not funnelled via vanity or but more in power, control and superiority….hiding my real feelings of inferiority. I think many of us NPD types would give their left arm to correct this personality flaw. Are there any basic guidelines / steps one can take to improve?

Thank you,

WOW! That describes my husband exactly. I have struggled every day, trying to understand. God is good, I got to your site trying to get help for my children. I have been married for almost 8 years and I have been to several counselors and ministers. All to tell us that my husband needed alot of work. The minister told me that my husband needed me to fulfill his goals, and it feels just like that. He did tell me, matter of factly, that he did what ever he had to to get me and could keep it up for as long as it took; however, once we got married that was not who he really was. I have decided to finally seperate, because it is more thatn I can handle. I have to be a PH. D. to deal with this. My concern is that we have very young children and this is greatly effecting them. I am not comfortable leaving my children with him because of his lack of emotional support for them and he does not protect them when his needs come first. Could you please advise.

Thank you! How do I find people who are trained to deal with this type of stuff. What do I look for and what questions should I ask?

I have been married to a narcissist for almost 23 years now and I HATE IT!

Although he is not the type that dresses all fancy and wants me to make him look good, he is very emotionally immature, refuses to wear dentures (he yanked his own teeth out as they systematically rotted), dresses like a slob most of the time, doesn’t care what people think of how he looks (that’s THEIR problem, including MINE)…his entire family is screwed up and now it’s being linked to a possible chromosome lack at birth.
This man’s father was an abuser and an incestuous child molester of both husband’s sisters. Of course, husband thinks the man was WONDERFUL in how he raised them…beating them for their own good and “look at how good it made ME turn out!”
Husband is quick to call me a hippocrite because I make choices and set boundaries about who I want in my house, etc…but he doesn’t practice any faith whatsoever, except to “use” God as a genie in a bottle to “pray” for whatever he wants…and then, blame God when he doesn’t deliver!
If I could, I’d get out of this relationship or lack thereof, but it’s complicated. If I found a friend who would walk with me through a separation, I’d have left long ago, but nobody would seem to want to be involved, but instead would wish me well and say they would pray for me. Those words are so EMPTY to someone who has spent years in emotional/psychological torment!
I’m currently working toward my degree in Psych…Bachelors. Go figure…I feel like an expert on personality disorders by now.
Living with this man has been miserable most of the time, a “fantasy” of his own making the rest of the time. I still wish someone would just come here and kick him out and rescue me. I know that’s not reality and that it will have to be ME who finally gets out, but like I said…complicated.

Hello Dr. Sam

I am fairly confident that my ex-fiance was, too, an N. He was educated, and presented himself well (of course) and we got along exceedingly well. Early in our relationship he mentioned his irrational dislike of disagreement, but we nearly never disagreed so I unknowingly was staying on his good side. I did notice small things he did that exemplified his control issues: he has a mild OCD when it comes to grooming for the day, and he once got very upset when I danced with another guy. Prior to meeting in person, we spoke online and had an uncanny chemistry. Despite this, he told me later that he almost managed to talk himself out of calling me. From then, I knew he could potentially be a self-sabotager. He made a huge ordeal about planning his proposal to me, choosing the ring on his own, introduced me to all of his friends, took me to his college reunion, etc. but now I realize that I was only a trophy to him. He loved surprises, but I think that was also more because it made him feel good to give the gifts than anything else. I honestly think he is a good and sincere person. He is the type of guy who always gives to the homeless, and volunteers his time in the community. He was always very, very thoughtful and kind (until he proposed, of course). We rarely argued, but whenever we did it was always the same pattern:
him: “(something that hurts my feelings)”
me: “babe that really hurt my feelings”
him: “why are you always criticizing me?” OR “why do you have such negative perceptions of me?”

None of that ever made any sense to me, and I quickly grew tired of apologizing to him for inflicting pain on ME. Whenever I would tell him that he was “cold” or “distant” he would become very angry. At one point, early on, when I expressed how I felt he asked if I felt he would ever abuse me physically, and I said no. Sexually, and I said no. Emotionally, and I said I don’t know. He didn’t have any comforting words to offer. He never offered up bits of info about himself or his past and became irritated when I asked. It was like he took me places and bought me things to compensate for his inability to give of himself.

After our engagement, the communication all but ceased. He began picking arguments and at one point told me he didn’t want to be “dominated by my perceptions” (i.e expected to change anything at all!) when the only thing I ever wanted this man to change about himself was the way he spoke to me. He was mildly pretentious, but nothing more than the average male ego (so it seemed). He insisted I was trying to control him when really I was generally very happy with him and had no complaints. He can be very outgoing, and has many friends- but he looks down on all but one of them. He idolizes his best friend, who appears to be very well adjusted emotionally. The best friend is about 6 yrs older, met his fiance around the same time that we met, and seems to be a genuinely good guy. We did not have intercourse as I don’t believe in sex before marriage, but I was a bit put off by how he seemed to lack consideration of the fact that I was a virgin when we were intimate. He didn’t respond well to even the mildest of suggestions, much less true criticism and became very defensive. I was often put off by his disgust when married guys would jokingly tell him that he needs to “learn to say yes, dear” or things like that. He loathed hearing such things and expressed a sense of pity for them…and this was AFTER we were engaged!

Our relationship ended when after nearly 2 months of his refusing to speak with me more than once a week (for 5 mins), to see me, to tell me he loved me, or even come to my graduation (when I was there for his and got him a $1,000 watch); I finally gave him his ring back unable to take his emotional abuse any more. When I tried one last time to talk it out two days later, he said that he felt it was all my fault (again) that things were as they were. His face had a staid, stoic look that was unfamiliar to me, and even when I playfully flicked a piece of paper at him (because I wanted so badly to touch him)- he was quick to say it was an act of aggression against him. He looked me in my face, and told me how he had lied to me about silly things (which was no secret to me), and other hurtful things while I struggled to contain the tears. He had no real explanation, nor did he act like he cared much- he even said he was “happier w/out the stress of our relationship”. One strange thing that he said was “I wish I could say something that would make you really angry at me, throw that water in my face and leave”. WHAT???

After that, he simply vanished. He temporarily succeeded in making me feel it was all my fault, and I went on a campaign to let him know how sorry I was. He told me to not ever contact him again. I know that I deserve far better than that, but I loved him and what we had so deeply. I would love to think I could email him something to suggest he get help, but in addition to being a narcissist, he is also a therapist (so there’s no telling him anything!) I feel like my story is so textbook, but is not the same as most of the posts here. Or perhaps I broke it off before it got to that point? Does this sound like cold feet or do you suspect its narcissism too? My mom is a therapist as well, and although I’ve not spoken to her about him possibly being a narcissist, the only negative thing she had to say when she first met him was that he was “extremely cold and emotionally detached”. Also, is it possible to develop this disorder from an unhealthy relationship with the father (who’s not the primary caregiver)? Is it delusional to think that if he were only able to address this that we could have worked out?

I am attracted to N men. In reading articles like Dr. Sam’s and posts here the majority of my relationships with men have seem to be with Ns. I am attracted to their seemingly confident personas and then gradually the emotional abuse starts, control issues and finally ending when I leave. I don’t seem to be able to trust my judgment any more when it comes to men.

I just stumbled on to this board and all of this
is really hitting home. I’ve been in a nine-year relationship with a very well-liked, respected, church going man in my community who has emotionally about done me in. I had been married to a man for 25 years and the whole time was totally told what to do, even down to how I should wear my hair. I finally couldn’t handle it any more and divorced him. I stayed in the marriage as long as I did for the children (2) and because I’m a Christian and felt we were suppose to stay together.
Along came another charming man who made me feel wonderful in no ways my husband had ever had.
Here comes the problem: I knew he had been separated from his wife for years and years. I never would have gotten involved with him, but he kept telling me he was going to get it done and even now the proceedings have been filed for a year but have not been finaled. All through the years I’ve tried to break up and he literally comes to me on hands and knees begging me to take him back. I’ve tried to go out with other people and he hears of it and the pressure is back on. We’re split up at the moment because of my concern that he has other “friends” and of course, I’m told that I’m being unreasonable and that’s my problem. I’ve even been told that he doesn’t think
if he got a divorce that that would even make me happy. My plan now is to just try to cut off all contact, but I know he will try to worm his way back because that is the nature of the disorder and he has done this to mean too many times to count.
Do you have any insight or suggestions and I’m sorry this got so long.

I have been married 34 yrs. to a man i believe is a narcissist.We are both educators,I just retired after 32 years. Soon after marrying him,two years, he became physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive. He would accuse me of having affairs with different men. Everythin he accused me of were things he was doing, many affairs. When he’d get angry, he would take the car keys, and I would have to rent cars many times. I also would have to hide at friends’ homes to get away from his abuse. I did file for divorce from him twice, but rescinded because he promised to do better. If something goes wrong, I am always to blame. He nags and fusses so that it was very hard to do my job. We moved to his home state 28 yrs. ago when he again said he’d do better. He also continued to have affairs. I was also being accused of having affairs with his brother, my brother-in-law, and whoever else. I came home from work one day and he almost jumped all over me saying I was out driving a man around and paying for hotel rooms. He also argues that he paid for everything we have, and told me to stay out of the car. He also took the key to the car that I’ve been driving for years. Our house is beautiful, and we also own real estate. He worships material things too much and likes to gamble. He also writes me notes and leaves them on the counter: Remember to clean all the grease off the counter, etc. He has also called me very hurtful things such as mf, bi, wh,which is very hurtful. Our daughters have completed college and Masters Degrees abd are very successful. My daughters and I are christians
and attend church every Sunday and believe the Lord will sustain us. He puts on a different front around his friends. I pray daily that God will deliver him from his evil and hate ways. It’s scary to think that someone like him can function daily, Knowing how he’s mistreated me through the years.”You reap what you sow.” After this last incident, I lived with my daughters for 3 months.
Thank God he’s always been loving and kind toward our daughters. If the laws weren’t changed, he would still be hitting, kicking, and biting. He never attended or congratulated me on my retirement. When he retired, I gave him a surprise retirement party. I am sad because I have never been unfaithful to him, and have always tried to be a good wife,friend, and partner. By the way, our oldest daughter is the one who suggested that he be narcissistic.
Thanks for listening.

I recently broke away from a narcissists after having a relationship for less than a year. So reading these articles I feel sorry for people who weren’t so lucky. I had been by myself for a long time so when this confident, financially secure man came into my I thought all of my Xmas’s had come at once. Pretty soon, I realised that he had no empathy about anyone and everything revolved around him and how he presents himself to the outside world. He is so consumed about his outward appearance that it takes a back seat to how he treats his loved ones, including his children. He manipulates his way around every situation. Often telling me that he would ‘break me’ into submission. He either ..buys what wants, takes it…or ..will wear you down to get what he wants. At times it was like dealing with a whinging child trying to get his own way. He said I was a challenge and therefore one to conquer. He was very forceful and at times I was frightened for my safety, this was towards the end. I was very scared about ending it as he believed he owned me and would not dare leave him. Luckily I saw my out and ran with it, telling him never to contact me again. I consider myself a fairly strong person yet he was able to fool me for quite a while. I am interested to know what sort of people do narcissists usually attract as a partner. How can I protect myself so that it doesn’t happen again?

Great books! I just finished reading them. Thank you for sharing Dr. Sam. C.

Hi I have contacte you in the past. I know you are busy but it is said so often how one sibling can escapes the effects of abuse/abandonement or whatever it might be. Or just the not “good enough” mother. I no for a fact my ex has malignant narcissism I have a 27 year docterate in his condition. Lately after speaking with his sister and seeing some of her life pattern she is 41. I am believing she might have the lesser disorder borderline. What she has told me is very compelling to fit this personality disorder. I don’t want to diagnose her but am thinking it might be a real answer for her. She has been diagnosed with bipolar, anxiety, add and I have read where they coexist and the root personality disorder doesn’t get diagnosed. Pleae tell me what you think. I am not someone who has spent a short time like many people above with a malignant narcissist. I have been married to one for almost 25 years total 27 years together. We have a complete history together so I really know what I am talking about. It is so hard to figure out the conditions I don’t even think someone involved with someone for a short time would even be able to do so.
Have you encountered sibling with same cluster personality disorders. Let me know what you feelings are on this.
Catherine

I apologize for all the grammar mistakes in the above. I do realize it makes it harder to understand and read.
Next time I will do a better job proofreading.
Cat

Hi there ! Im in desperate need of help ! I think ive discovered today from this amazing site what the heck is going on with my , now EX !

I met him 2 yers ago - he was EVERYTHING i wanted in a man, I met him on an internet forum and we hit it off instantly ! at the time , i didnt know he was making plans with a girl in australia to meet up and go on holiday in a years time - I noticed them flirting alot online and questioned it , and he said nothing was going on - they were just flirting when he was single and shes a bit obscessed …. so ok , i dismissed it ! … Feb on this forum she attacked me for being with him basically ! I had no clue !! He hadnt told her he was seeing me and the plans they made had gone down the drain … i didnt find this out untill all became revealed and he had told a lie! …..

So when we met online - he was EVERYTHING i envisioned - we chatted he said he wanted kids in the future , what his definition of being in love was , and it was my image too !! …. 2 months down the line , i had already fallen totally inlove with this man - he dropped the bombshell on me that he doesnt think he could see me and him committed because he wouldnt be able to accept my son , its too much , but he loves what we have (Long distance , once a fornight) and could do this forever …. so of course i wasnt happy , i felt reeled in , and as soon as i let my barriers down that he dropped it on me ! …. So of course i hoped he would change down the line , and we could stay as we were for a while - dating ….

He then tells me a month after he has a child which he has never seen , he was tricked into a pregnancy - and he ran whilst preg and this was the reason he couldnt accept my son …. i loved this man unconditionally and accepted what he had told me , even though i didnt agree with what he had done , being a loving mother myself !!! … i hoped again we could work on these issues , and i suggested counselling ?? He said we will see , and has never bothered , and i dont think has any intention of doing !! …..

his dad also died when he was 13 , he looked after his mother when he died , and she admitted to me new years eve that noone was ever there for him - she was so in love everyone looked after her !! she too said he needed counselling - what is weird though , is she only admits this infront of me ?? I was once there at her house and when i was sat next to him whilst he was worrying about his job , whether he would work abroad - i was 18 motnhs into a relationship with him , and its like i never existed even though i was sat there !!! … hes there at her every whim - she lives on a “bad” estate apparantly , and rings him if there is a fire across the road for example ! hes there in an instant stressed , and even though he has offered her to move into his untill she gets a move she wont !! yet he stayed there for a week the other week and said there was no probs whilst she was away ??? …. also , she never encourages him to pursue a relationship , and i was apparantly “the love of his life” … as soon as theres a bumpin the road , she tells him to be friends with me ….

Anyway , the main traits i had had this year with this background info - he wants a long distance relationships forever and have felt hes dangling me , he cant accept my son - we were bed buddies at some point last year when we broke up for 2 months - when we broke up i started to move on , as soon as i did he told me he was in love with me and wanted to do more stuff with me and my son - quality time - we got back together but still said he couldnt be committed and it was too tough , everytime i defend myself and try to communicate our relationship im told im attacking and battering him - he told me being around my son makes him physically sick - i went through a traumatic experience with my son this year , and he said it was too much to emotionally handle - his little mind cant take it in (sometimes he talks like a baby and hes 37 !!!!) - he continually asks me why is it only me who has a problem with the way he is - and my responce is because your friends are not as intimate as me , and dont expect the same sort of love !! - he responds , oh yeah ! i must be mental then ! your psychology degree is really paying off huh ? I say to him i dont have a degree on HIM! i tell him how I feel and EVERYTHING goes back to him ! and how he feels , “the poor me’s” - i felt totally emotionally isolated … that is the major stuff of our relationship …

lastly , we broke up 4 weeks ago - because he had arranged to see his friends in scotland without inviting me and keeping it secret for 6 weeks ! I saw his friend counting down on msn , and wondered if he had been making me out to be bad to her for wanting more out the relationship and i hadnt been invited !! I was Hurt ! …. he cried all week when i was asking for the truth , and i think its because he didnt get away with lying , im a bright person !! … he told me i was attacking again and broke us up … he said he was taking time out and turning his phone off - my friends said he HAD a new number … however his walking away lasted a day and he was texting every 24 hours swapping sims it looks like - he still hasnt admitted a new sim card ! he says he wants us to be friends , which i agreed to - and vry hard i might add , because HE keeps constantly telling me to move on when im trying , yet can get nasty and laugh psychotically down the phone at me when i get upset about something or defend myself from his verbalness at times !! he tells me i was a massive part of his life , but he enjoys being on his own more , says i battered him and attacked him for 2 years !! So why does he want me in his life as a friend ?? i tell him im going off doing my own stuff , and he gets defensive and tries to act hes pleased for me - but at the same time acts peed off ! Is he a narcissist?? I have been over and over his selfishness the last 3 weeks and think i may understand now ! I also feel him and his mum’s closeness is almost unhealthy ! … i always felt second best … help i dont know what to do anymore regarding contact as he continually says even now the relationship ended coz it wasnt right for him - yet i did everything a GF could ?? love etc and loyalty ?? Thanks

can i also add , his mum still does his washing for him as he lives in a flat , and one time she said she had a dream she was dying , and all she could think when she woke up was who will do his washing !!! he also said to me one time when we were talking about our future - when his mam goes it will be a lonely life and it doesnt seem nice being alone ….. he also asked me to move closer to him new years eve …. which i was thrilled about considering his issues !! … a week later he said well is it a good idea? we may not stay together ?? …. i said to him thanks for the optimism ! …. i got told off for attacking … again !!! … lastly the other week , he told me i was obscessed ! even though its him who reads MY social networking sites ! … when were talking as mates too , he always says to me when we are talking about our previous relationship , that i want to get back together and havent accepted !!! I dont even incline that !! is he enjoying this ?its seeming pretty sick and abusive

Does anybody know of any discusion groups/meeting places or even phone numbers of other, that have also suffered from narcasistic people… as i have suffered years of abuse from my Dad and have spent years in councilling trying to explain the ways he is, and i find it really difficult because i think people tend not to believe me or think im exagerating, but im not..so for me to talk to others that know what im talking about and will believe me, would be a great help to me..Please help, ive only just recently worked it out the he’s a narcasist. my email address is Yupinburns@hotmail.co.uk and would really appreciate help.
Paul

Hi, Dr. Lopez. I appreciate your information, and I am sad over my relationship. I have made many excuses for him over the past two years, as he was working through the trauma/attacks/stalking of a previous relationship. Now, through therapy, he is better, but MY urgent needs (financial, physical, emotional) which have grown over the two years are seldom discussed. When they are, hearing about what I need usually “makes” him mad, feel threatened and are seen as an attack on him. He lacks empathy, although he believes he is good at listening, communicating, and understanding. I am speechless when he says this. When he WANTS empathy, there is no warmer person in the world. When I need something, there is always a reason why the “timing” is wrong. Then he says because he loves me and I am so important to him, he does want to give me the attention I deserve for such an important topic and so it should wait until he is not so distracted. Those moments never come. Our physical intimacy has ceased as his trauma over the past has re-emerged in the last few months as the ex continues to stalk and harass him. I can’t get him to address this part of our relationship. I know he has trust and intimacy issues. In his therapy he is not dealing with his and my relationship, however…he is only dealing with the past…I know one must do this, but I fear he and I cannot make it through the present while he is mired in the aftermath of his past trauma. He is also by his own actions actually keeping the trauma alive, as he has had the God-like idea that he could CHANGE the ex if he could only communicate with her effectively and make her nice and stop tormenting him. This has made her harassment worse, of course. I struggle with the idea that we are, through further unusual circumstances not explained here, bound to each other versus the idea that we helped each other, but that now, when he shows he really is the center of his own universe and expects me to revolve like the moon around his sun, it is destructive for me to stay. Over the two years, in coping with his trauma, he has shown intermittent rage, emotional, verbal, and physical violence toward me. He is also brilliant and gifted. These too, are part of his charisma. I struggle with feeling life is not worth living at this point because of the limitations of the relationship, even as I know how ridiculous it is to make it so important that it strips me of myself. I have had long-term wonderful relationships before and am still on loving terms with two ex’s. It’s hard to un-bond and “abandon” him. It’s hard to throw away the good with the bad. We work well together on projects. We have loving times together. Sometimes I look at the loving times and am amazed that we achieve those in spite of the frustration of no physical intimacy. Other times I look at the loving moments and think they are all on his terms and only happen when he feels like being that way. Other times, when he calls me selfish, I think that I am the one who is a narcissist and that he is more committed than I am. I feel enervated, sometimes despondent, and confused about what to do. He has never been married and has no former girlfriends who want anything to do with him, except the obsessive ex who is still stalking us. Any insight you have will be appreciated. Thank you, Helena.

Dr Sam:

I am married to what I believe is an N for 24 years. His parents were both alcholics. His mother said she was always “me, me, me”. stepfather always yelled at her and home life was not good. He said he always felt like he never fit in, moved to grandparents later in life; who also watched him and his sister when parents were in bars.

My husband is self employed and I stayed home after children were born. I have a great childhood with unbelieveable parents. My mother catered to my father, but marriage was 50/50, no yelling he helped her, she helped him. So, I turn did the same and assumed would have the same.

Well, guess what, marriage is 99/1. He told me in the beginning he new seeing my mother the way she was I would be the same. “enabler”. I am a giver and always have been to my famiy to anyone. Just my nature.

My husband:
-his way or now way
-yells, never talks
-you can talk to him, and it’s as if you are not there, you NEVER get a response other than “oh”, and off to another subject, IF you even get that much
-would do the same to the kids, (now in early 20’s and still home)
-told him for years how he was with the kids and to talk to them, said you don’t want to have same relationship with them you did with your parents, said he didn’t care
-if you disagree with him, he has a tantrum
-you critize him, he goes off the deep end
-never ever asks me how work was (just went back two years ago), or if I go out, where did u go with your friends, what did you do, NOTHING????
-self-absorbed to the MAX (you can be with other people have a conversation, and his reply will be on a totally other subject - totally random)
-belittles me and kids
-micro manages
-NEGATIVE to the extreme, everyone, everthing I say he is negative he says he is a realist
-blames everyones for anything going wrong NEVER does he admit to ANYTHING
-it’s like we don’t exist unless he wants something,
-speaks and asks me questions about my day “only” when he wants sex I have told him he is so transparent
-memory forget it, only if it has to do with real estate, money or something he is interested in, other than that goes in one ear and out the other
-refers to me as “my wife” never my name, even to people who have known us for many years

went to marriage counselor said if he doesn’t change I will leave, told me to say to him to be in the “here and now” when he doesn’t respond to me, he did it for a few days and said no more. I have tried to tell him nicely how I feel and kids, and get no where. His time, thoughts, wants and needs are important, ours are not.
Also, he can see other people and what they do wrong but not in his own house. My kids don’t even bother with him anymore. My son has such anger toward him.

Can you tell me, without going on and only with examples in your opinion is he a narcissist?

Thank you for your time

Fascinating stuff here. I recognize my ex-wife, a girlfriend or two or three, my wife’s entire family (oddly, she’s practically perfect), and my father and brother (fortunately, I’m adopted). Most of the women I have known have been this, but only a few men. What can I learn from that??

Very interesting article, I fit your description almost to a tee, except I have to add a religious, dare I say, cultish environment(Jehovah’s Witnesses) in my you early youth. I think this adds another facet to my personality which may be both negative or positive at times. I’m an artist and recently did a drawing titled the same as my Pseudonym use here. I really don’t see any way out of my personality type. I do feel guilty much of the time even if I am self-centered.Even with my insurance (which I no longer have)I could not afford counseling/a therapist. I went to a therapist for two sessions for depression/suicidal thoughts. As I mentioned I could not afford it at the time. I also live with a very insecure mate who has a tendency to crucify me for whatever perceived or real wrongs I’ve committed.She immediately becomes the victim after my crucifixion. This definitely makes me shutdown emotionally. What simple things can I do to change for the better? I doubt that it is possible but am willing to try.

This thread hits home on so many levels I am almost at a loss for words. I am grateful for the candid stories and wisdom of the people here. It makes me think there have been some dues paid to learn all of these things.

I have spent most of my life trying to overcome wounds from my brother who was disabled and very cruel and my mother who made us responsible for keeping the peace with him at any price.

I see a counselor and am working overcoming the effects of this in my past.

I have often drawn narcissists into my life. But I am learning how to set boundaries now, which I believe will help.

There is little doubt that my brother was very disturbed and a NF. He had brain trauma. Also, my father was cruel to him. This affected him deeply.

He was the oldest, and his mental and emotional cruelty toward us when we were children is almost indescribable. Much to my relief he recently passed away. I never felt totally safe until he was gone.

When children my mother chose to make us responsible for his bad behavior. If you tried to talk to her about it she exploded and treated you like a traitor.

It was hard being held to such an impossible standard of perfection. It was doubly hard having no where to go for emotional safety.

It took a long time to figure out her control tactics. Now, when/if she tries to control me I leave her house and go home.

But I have learned to forgive her. Because she can only do what she knows how to do. I cannot expect her to change if she cannot comprehend what that means.

If you are a person who has been through such trauma, are you automatically a narcissist? What if you want a salient, normal life and are willing to work hard for it?

Working through all this may never end. All I can do is take it one day at a time.

That’s about all I can say. Except that I am very glad for your website and your understanding of these problems.

Thank you for your response, however,the most difficult part of this is the “so called memory or should I say lack of hearing”. It seems like he hears only what he wants when he wants, I can say something and then be told I never said it or I didn’t hear you. A lot of times I get “I didn’t know you were talking to me, when he is the only one in the room. It is very noticable to people around also. We can be on one subject and the comes up with something totally different and everyone looks and me and laughs. I know it’s not early altzheimers, I know he does not have hearing problems because if you discuss something he is interested in he hears it all. What is it, it is driving me nuts!!!!!! My tolerance is wearing very thin. As usual I said to get it checked, maybe hearing or other types of help, he says he has no problem. When I asked something to get repeated he yells because he has to repeat himself. It’s gotten to the point that if I do repeat myself I speak a lot louder which makes him upset he says I don’t have to yell, or I just don’t repeat myself at all, in which case my one sided conversations are becoming far and few in between. Also, forgetting things, but that is okay unless I forget something. Please, tell me what you think it is, is it just the lack of interest????
thank you again for your time and answering my questions.
Cathy

I wonder if this is what is wrong with me. Isolation for sure, and obsessed with my own suffering. Trying to control those close to me thru fear, while fearful they will leave. So many horrible attributes, and fighting to believe there might be something good in me. The best news was that there is HOPE, I just don’t know where to turn. I have lost the most important person in my life recently, in part by my own choice. 50+ years of fighting for myself….for what reason?

hey all. I had the dynamite experience in 1993. I was forced into anger management. I began to seriously ask myself why I was angry. As i kicked down door after door in my mind i began to remember horrific abuse. I went for a long while displaying all the symptoms of narcissism, histrion? sociopathy, etc…I have finally got to the last door. When you knock on the last door You meet God almighty. Peace. Anyway, there is hope. I find myself crying now for victims and even perpetrators. I’m no longer putting on a show or trying to perpetuate the delusion that my family was perfect. I have forgave all and feel wonderful sometimes. What is’nt a Lie, wasn’t the truth. I wish I had thought of that. God only knows how much suffering fathered that brilliance. That statement is like a Laser. Your aim was good and your shaft was swift.(ben Casey) lol. I’m not crazy. I’m just psychologically damaged. Picture spongebob and patrick in the restroom. Spongebob says…”Hey Patrick, were not ugly, we just have rancid breath.” ha ha ha ha ha ha. I enjoy this site. I feel pity for the N. See, they were left behind. They exist in a playpen. Entire families of grown up folks still run a horse race at family reunions. I enjoy this reality pool Dr. Sam and wish You all the best. We are what we Eat. Every word matters. Some folks are hating Narcissists and have all kind of games they play on them to toy with their mind. I think that is child abuse.

can you trust a narcisist in a business deal?

I do have a contract but it is not strictly binding. It could be interprated.

When I told that the contract was not trusted and that a new one with clearer terms was requested,he had a fit. Told me I shouldnt work with him if I did not trust him and the company where he was the sole owner. And declared that once he gave his word nothing could change that.

Will he try to walk out of his word even if there are witnesses?

He has no intention of making a new contact with clearer tems.

And the worst part of it we are emotionally involved. We have been playing the push-pull and hot-cold and loving caring-cold distant games for the past 8 years. No sex involved.

He did make an attampt but I refused because I was in a relationship, but when I was free and showed interst in him he pulled away.

Never lets me go and close the door for good, but does not let me get any closer then an arms length either. He even geve me book once on “seduction”. I really wonder what the message behing that was since he showed no interest in physical involvment.

ı know he is exploting my affection for him.But at this point I have to keep cool and get through with the busieness and close the deal

Please let me know what u thing about the contaract.

Hi Dr Sam, You are actually an unusual entity in that you believe there is hope for those with NPD. But I was wondering what you think about this. I, as you do, believe this results from a trauma/neglect experienced before the age of 6. Which as I understand is “the age of reason” and people are pretty much who they are going to be by this age. Such as morally. I was just wondering as I have read on the net that the person with NPD doesn’t really have a “normal” to go to since this disorder, coping defense mechanism is established by such an early age. How can an extreme narcissist get to a place emotionally that they have no idea about? Or do you believe that they do have the emotional resources somewhere but supressed to the subconscious?
Thanks for your time!